Need alot of help with BEGI S install :(
02-04-2008, 01:43 PM
#21
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gainesville, VA
Posts: 56
Total Cats: 0
1: Tuning should only require one step. Call Begi. What they will tell you is that you need to tune your ~0 vaccum fuel pressure. Without a fuel pressure gauge, this becomes very difficult. If you've got one, the instructions are here: http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...s_manuals.html The "flying saucer thing" is your Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator (AFPR). It's purpose is to raise fuel pressure in the rail. When you add more air to the engine with the turbocharger, you need to add an equal amount of more fuel to match. The stock engine computer can't do this for you electronically by holding the injectors open longer (injector pulse length), so you need to do it mechanically. The AFPR has a boost line hooked up to it... when it senses boost, it clamps down on the fuel return line to the fuel tank. The fuel pump continues to pump fuel, but if the excess can't get back to the tank, FUEL PRESSURE builds up in the fuel rail. If you keep the same injector pulse width(with the stock ECU), and the same size fuel injectors, the only way to increase fuel is to increase fuel pressure.
2: You can't expect a tap to fit in a hole that's too small for it. Get the right sized tap.
3: Again, there is a SPECIFIC ORDER TO TIGHTEN THE NUTS for the entire exhaust system... and they're on the same page as above. Get everything nutted down finger tight... and then hit them with the wrench in the right order.
4: A BOV serves a specific purpose within a turbo system. The purpose is not to go whoosh. When you're running in boost, and lift off the gas, the throttle plate in the throttle body closes... and all the boost that the turbo is making slams up against it and backs up in the pipe... that pressure backup makes it's way backwards into the turbo and stalls it. Then when you get back on the gas, it has to spin all the way back up from essentially zero. A BOV releases all that boost pressure when you lift off the throttle so the turbo keeps most of it's speed (reducing the time it takes to get back into boost).
However, as soon as any air makes it's way past the MAF, the ECU has already calculated fuel for it... so when you blow a bunch of it out into space, the ECU has a fit and you run instantly rich. Some guys (myself) have really difficult times getting the car to run properly running a Vent-To-Atmosphere (VTA) BOV... and instead run the system RECIRCULATED, and attach a hose to the BOV and run all the air back into the intake between the MAF and the turbo.
The Begi S system doesn't run enough boost stock to warrant a BOV. I wouldn't worry about one now unless you've got a hard-on for the whoosh. But it is necessary if you plan on more boost in the future.
2: You can't expect a tap to fit in a hole that's too small for it. Get the right sized tap.
3: Again, there is a SPECIFIC ORDER TO TIGHTEN THE NUTS for the entire exhaust system... and they're on the same page as above. Get everything nutted down finger tight... and then hit them with the wrench in the right order.
4: A BOV serves a specific purpose within a turbo system. The purpose is not to go whoosh. When you're running in boost, and lift off the gas, the throttle plate in the throttle body closes... and all the boost that the turbo is making slams up against it and backs up in the pipe... that pressure backup makes it's way backwards into the turbo and stalls it. Then when you get back on the gas, it has to spin all the way back up from essentially zero. A BOV releases all that boost pressure when you lift off the throttle so the turbo keeps most of it's speed (reducing the time it takes to get back into boost).
However, as soon as any air makes it's way past the MAF, the ECU has already calculated fuel for it... so when you blow a bunch of it out into space, the ECU has a fit and you run instantly rich. Some guys (myself) have really difficult times getting the car to run properly running a Vent-To-Atmosphere (VTA) BOV... and instead run the system RECIRCULATED, and attach a hose to the BOV and run all the air back into the intake between the MAF and the turbo.
The Begi S system doesn't run enough boost stock to warrant a BOV. I wouldn't worry about one now unless you've got a hard-on for the whoosh. But it is necessary if you plan on more boost in the future.
WOW now that is a very detailed and educated answer ( not that the ohter ones were not ) this one hit the nail right on the head. Thanks
I do have the GT2860RS turbo? Would that make a diffrence in the BOV decision? Also don't you need a boost regulator to choose how much boost you want to run?
Reply
0
0
02-04-2008, 07:40 PM
#26
I believe the Begi kits ship with 6psi(or close enougg) wastegate springs whether you're getting the 2554 or 2560. The benefit of getting a bigger turbo initially is your room to upgrade down the line, but for now, the bigger turbo really doesn't buy you anything except probably slightly lower charged temps.
Assuming the same amount of boost, a larger turbo will be able to compress the the same amount of air more efficiently than a smaller turbo. When we talk about efficiency, the end result if that a larger turbo won't heat the air up as much as it compresses it. Keeping your intake temps down is one of the necessities of making power. Cold air is dense, hot air is not, and the hotter the air entering the combustion chamber brings you that much closer to detonation. Your money is not wasted on the bigger turbo as this kit is designed for someone on a budget to upgrade over time.
pschmidt seems to have firsthand knowledge of the kit and says he had problems. I don't see Begi designing or shipping anything that doesn't function 100% correctly, and common turbocharging knowledge says that you don't really need a BOV at or below the boost the kit ships at. But one thing is for sure, a BOV will improve your re-spool upon shifting, and will set you up for future growth.
There are two ways to get more boost assuming the same turbo and wastegate spring. There are two types of boost controller, Manual, and Electric (MBC and EBC). MBC's are stupidly easy to install and dial the boost up. EBC's require some tuning and a small amount of wiring, but are extremely accurate. YOU however cannot turn the boost up until you get a way to lower the intake temps (intercooler or water injection), and safely raise your ability to add fuel (higher flow fuel pump/injectors).
The other thing you run into when considering to raise boost is your timing. The stock ECU does not have the ability to adjust ignition timing to compensate for boost. The simplest aftermarket device to use is called a Bipes. It's a proven piece of gear that does the trick.
Also do some research on a thing called an "O2clamp
So, your upgrade path looks like this:
More boost= MBC or EBC
More fuel= injectors/fuel pump/O2clamp/adjusting current AFPR
Timing= Bipes
The above pieces are generally referred to as bandaids... and will take you pretty far but are still hampered by the limits of the stock ECU. Better to replace the ECU and let a new computer control all your timing and fuel. Megasquirt is the forum favorite. An MS and some large injectors, plus an intercooler/BOV added to your current Begi S kit will see you to an easy 15psi... don't forget a clutch.
If you haven't read the FAQ on the DIY page, everything there applies to your Begi S kit. Read this thoroughly if you haven't already: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4288
Assuming the same amount of boost, a larger turbo will be able to compress the the same amount of air more efficiently than a smaller turbo. When we talk about efficiency, the end result if that a larger turbo won't heat the air up as much as it compresses it. Keeping your intake temps down is one of the necessities of making power. Cold air is dense, hot air is not, and the hotter the air entering the combustion chamber brings you that much closer to detonation. Your money is not wasted on the bigger turbo as this kit is designed for someone on a budget to upgrade over time.
pschmidt seems to have firsthand knowledge of the kit and says he had problems. I don't see Begi designing or shipping anything that doesn't function 100% correctly, and common turbocharging knowledge says that you don't really need a BOV at or below the boost the kit ships at. But one thing is for sure, a BOV will improve your re-spool upon shifting, and will set you up for future growth.
There are two ways to get more boost assuming the same turbo and wastegate spring. There are two types of boost controller, Manual, and Electric (MBC and EBC). MBC's are stupidly easy to install and dial the boost up. EBC's require some tuning and a small amount of wiring, but are extremely accurate. YOU however cannot turn the boost up until you get a way to lower the intake temps (intercooler or water injection), and safely raise your ability to add fuel (higher flow fuel pump/injectors).
The other thing you run into when considering to raise boost is your timing. The stock ECU does not have the ability to adjust ignition timing to compensate for boost. The simplest aftermarket device to use is called a Bipes. It's a proven piece of gear that does the trick.
Also do some research on a thing called an "O2clamp
So, your upgrade path looks like this:
More boost= MBC or EBC
More fuel= injectors/fuel pump/O2clamp/adjusting current AFPR
Timing= Bipes
The above pieces are generally referred to as bandaids... and will take you pretty far but are still hampered by the limits of the stock ECU. Better to replace the ECU and let a new computer control all your timing and fuel. Megasquirt is the forum favorite. An MS and some large injectors, plus an intercooler/BOV added to your current Begi S kit will see you to an easy 15psi... don't forget a clutch.
If you haven't read the FAQ on the DIY page, everything there applies to your Begi S kit. Read this thoroughly if you haven't already: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4288
Reply
0
0
02-04-2008, 10:46 PM
#27
Former Vendor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bell Tuning & Performance
Posts: 1,337
Total Cats: -99
The GT2860 is large enough to create compressor surge. I would use a Bypass valve, not a BOV. If you want to switch out tubes that would fit a by-pass valve, shoot me an e-mail and we can exchange them for different ones, for an upgrade fee and if they have not been used.
Stephanie
Reply
0
0
02-04-2008, 11:49 PM
#28
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 106
Total Cats: 1
With the tap size being greater then .500 it is alright to drill one size smaller since most drills drill a little bigger anyway. That being said it is all right to use a 9/16 drill for the 5/8-18 tap, just make sure you go slow, back turn the tap an using oil.
Reply
0
0
02-05-2008, 08:32 AM
#29
^What? What does .500 have to do with anything?
I'm a big fan of using the right tool for the job. Trying to fit a tap into a hole drilled 1/16 too small doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of whether the tap will squeeze in there. It's just that much more stress on the surrounding metal. And there's no need for any oil when drilling into butter-soft aluminum. What you really want to do is coat the tap in grease so the metal flakes will stick to the tap and not fall into the pan. You'll still have to stick a dozen q-tips inside the pan and feel around to get most of the metal shavings out... then do the mineral spirits flush... the filter will get the rest.
Steph, if there's a known problem with surge on the 2860, shouldn't it ship with the Forge to start with, or at least be something customers are told about... and it's getting to be a common theme that guys say the install instructions are bad... any rewrites in the works?
I'm a big fan of using the right tool for the job. Trying to fit a tap into a hole drilled 1/16 too small doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of whether the tap will squeeze in there. It's just that much more stress on the surrounding metal. And there's no need for any oil when drilling into butter-soft aluminum. What you really want to do is coat the tap in grease so the metal flakes will stick to the tap and not fall into the pan. You'll still have to stick a dozen q-tips inside the pan and feel around to get most of the metal shavings out... then do the mineral spirits flush... the filter will get the rest.
Steph, if there's a known problem with surge on the 2860, shouldn't it ship with the Forge to start with, or at least be something customers are told about... and it's getting to be a common theme that guys say the install instructions are bad... any rewrites in the works?
Reply
0
0
02-05-2008, 04:42 PM
#30
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 106
Total Cats: 1
the 1/2" rule i learned back when I was starting in the tool and die trade and the size is difference from the reccomended 37/64 and 9/16 is only 1/64 which translates to a .0136" after ovaling and the possiblilty of it being drilled a little over anyway it'll probably only be like .006-.008 thou to small. The oil is not for the drilling but the tapping which does the same idea as the grease you mentioned.
Reply
0
0
02-05-2008, 07:00 PM
#31
^That's where I was screwing up. I know a 1/2" NPT tap needs a 45/64" bit. I can't tell in the pic above what size barb Begi is including, but it looks like 1/2"NPT.
Latitude... you're saying that you drilled a hole in your oilpan with a 31/64" bit and there's no way the included tap will go in it? Then you do in fact have a 1/2"NPT tap that requires a 45/64" bit. I bought mine online somewhere... but maybe you can talk somebody close to you into loaning you one. When you tap the hole, you're probably gonna have to use the entire length of the tap, as it's slightly tapered and taps the hole wider as you sink it deeper.
My advice is to get the right bit and drill the hole bigger. Then, sink the tap in about halfway and pull it out. Then check to see if the oil drain fitting will go in. If not, sink the tap in a little deeper. Repeat this process until the drain fitting goes in snugly. You don't want to drill the hole too big and have the fitting loose in the threads. You're going to JBWeld it in the end, but better to have things fit right by taking your time.
Latitude... you're saying that you drilled a hole in your oilpan with a 31/64" bit and there's no way the included tap will go in it? Then you do in fact have a 1/2"NPT tap that requires a 45/64" bit. I bought mine online somewhere... but maybe you can talk somebody close to you into loaning you one. When you tap the hole, you're probably gonna have to use the entire length of the tap, as it's slightly tapered and taps the hole wider as you sink it deeper.
My advice is to get the right bit and drill the hole bigger. Then, sink the tap in about halfway and pull it out. Then check to see if the oil drain fitting will go in. If not, sink the tap in a little deeper. Repeat this process until the drain fitting goes in snugly. You don't want to drill the hole too big and have the fitting loose in the threads. You're going to JBWeld it in the end, but better to have things fit right by taking your time.
Reply
0
0
02-06-2008, 04:46 PM
#32
Former Vendor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bell Tuning & Performance
Posts: 1,337
Total Cats: -99
Steph, if there's a known problem with surge on the 2860, shouldn't it ship with the Forge to start with, or at least be something customers are told about... and it's getting to be a common theme that guys say the install instructions are bad... any rewrites in the works?
The instuctions have been updated. If someone has sent me recommendation, they have been corrected. The latest version is not on the web, but I will post them as soon as possible. I still need to finalize the BEGi-S w/ the IC version.
Stephanie
Reply
0
0
02-06-2008, 09:26 PM
#33
Hi,
I did not know what i was getting my self into when i started the installation by my self but the 3 page instruction set that came with the BEGI S kit was very misleading :( any way i have some questions that i need answered before i can get the miata back on the road
1 - After i install the kit do i have to get any kind of tunning done? or can i just drive the car? There are some ***** and stuff on the Silver Fuel saucer looking thing from BEGI what are the settings suppose to be for that?
2 - i drilled the whole but i cant get the TAP in there. Also the info in the forums and the instructions are very confusing. I tapped using a 31/64" drill bit (i could not find a 37/64") and now what fitting do i put in there? the BEGI instructions show the BIGger TAP the 1/2" but they tell you to use the 3/8" ? which one is it? and how do i get it in there?
3 - hooking up the down pipe with the turbo there is a little gap between the two on one of the sides it is big enough so i can see through it but the nuts are tight all the way is there a gasket or something that is suppose to go in there?
4 - also will this setup make the turbo wooooshh sound or do i need to buy a blowoff valve? and if i do have to buy it where do i hook it up and where do i get one from?
I will try to post some pics of the mess i have made
thanks for all the help you guys can give me i really do appriciate it and may be one day after this install is done i can help some one else
I did not know what i was getting my self into when i started the installation by my self but the 3 page instruction set that came with the BEGI S kit was very misleading :( any way i have some questions that i need answered before i can get the miata back on the road
1 - After i install the kit do i have to get any kind of tunning done? or can i just drive the car? There are some ***** and stuff on the Silver Fuel saucer looking thing from BEGI what are the settings suppose to be for that?
2 - i drilled the whole but i cant get the TAP in there. Also the info in the forums and the instructions are very confusing. I tapped using a 31/64" drill bit (i could not find a 37/64") and now what fitting do i put in there? the BEGI instructions show the BIGger TAP the 1/2" but they tell you to use the 3/8" ? which one is it? and how do i get it in there?
3 - hooking up the down pipe with the turbo there is a little gap between the two on one of the sides it is big enough so i can see through it but the nuts are tight all the way is there a gasket or something that is suppose to go in there?
4 - also will this setup make the turbo wooooshh sound or do i need to buy a blowoff valve? and if i do have to buy it where do i hook it up and where do i get one from?
I will try to post some pics of the mess i have made
thanks for all the help you guys can give me i really do appriciate it and may be one day after this install is done i can help some one else
Reply
0
0
02-11-2008, 04:48 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: somewhere in NoVA
Posts: 533
Total Cats: -1
Cheers,
Prospero
Reply
0
0
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
StratoBlue1109
Miata parts for sale/trade
21
09-30-2018 01:09 PM
stoves
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain
5
04-21-2016 03:00 PM
