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Old 01-15-2014, 02:05 PM   #41
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LOL @ derail

It seems as though he's making a valid point according to Garrett water cooling writeup, but I just think its a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If we were cooking oil and destroying turbos due to heat this might be something worth revising. I dunno
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:12 PM   #42
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First day at MT.net and I already love all of you guys <3

Anyways how does drill & tap your radiator (near the cap) for the turbo coolant return sound?

How do i drill and tap a plastic radiator without cracking it?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:14 PM   #43
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How do i drill and tap a plastic radiator without cracking it?
Spin the drill bit backwards and melt your way through.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:33 PM   #44
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How do i drill and tap a plastic radiator without cracking it?
Who has a turbo miata and a stock radiator?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:44 PM   #45
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Probably the same kind of moron that wouldn't know enough to route his coolant lines correctly.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:47 PM   #46
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Mazda engineers routed the MSM water lines from the block to the turbo to the mixing manifold. So they are idiots just like us?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:47 PM   #47
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Im curious, assuming I understand the old ford timey picture showing a water pump-less cooling system relying on thermal siphoning, ok cool,makes sense. But once you add a water pump into the fluid path, and said water pump is stopped when car is shut off, wouldn't that restrict/block any potential fluid flow caused from thermal variances between hot and slightly less hot areas since the pressue differential is rather low I imagine?

I could see how it would work in an unrestricted flow path, but I would be pretty skeptical of it working the same when you slap a pretty significant obstruction in there.

Or do you anticipate the water to only cycle through the head, and ignoring the water trying to pass through the rad? in which case wouldnt all the water in the head (regardless of back, side, front, be fairly close in temperature? The only temp difference that would occur would be colder water(in rad) vs warmer water(all of it inside a heatsoaked lump of metal, the head)

'Splain me your logic
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:50 PM   #48
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Mazda engineers routed the MSM water lines from the block to the turbo to the mixing manifold. So they are idiots just like us?

No that's ok, because that's an IHI turbo, not a Garrett.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
No that's ok, because that's an IHI turbo, not a Garrett.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rigidbigelsworth View Post
Im curious, assuming I understand the old ford timey picture showing a water pump-less cooling system relying on thermal siphoning, ok cool,makes sense. But once you add a water pump into the fluid path, and said water pump is stopped when car is shut off, wouldn't that restrict/block any potential fluid flow caused from thermal variances between hot and slightly less hot areas since the pressue differential is rather low I imagine?

I could see how it would work in an unrestricted flow path, but I would be pretty skeptical of it working the same when you slap a pretty significant obstruction in there.

Or do you anticipate the water to only cycle through the head, and ignoring the water trying to pass through the rad? in which case wouldnt all the water in the head (regardless of back, side, front, be fairly close in temperature? The only temp difference that would occur would be colder water(in rad) vs warmer water(all of it inside a heatsoaked lump of metal, the head)

'Splain me your logic
I think his (and Garretts) logic is more based on theory and less considerate of different engines, cooling setups, etc.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:06 PM   #50
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Dang it, I had a really long response written up full of logic, wit and understanding. Then I lost it.

Oh well.

Cliff Notes = Don't fix what's not broken.

Vuti - welcome, and prove your method is better. With data. of both set-ups.



CURSE ME
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by rigidbigelsworth View Post
Im curious, assuming I understand the old ford timey picture showing a water pump-less cooling system relying on thermal siphoning, ok cool,makes sense. But once you add a water pump into the fluid path, and said water pump is stopped when car is shut off, wouldn't that restrict/block any potential fluid flow caused from thermal variances between hot and slightly less hot areas since the pressue differential is rather low I imagine?

I could see how it would work in an unrestricted flow path, but I would be pretty skeptical of it working the same when you slap a pretty significant obstruction in there.

Or do you anticipate the water to only cycle through the head, and ignoring the water trying to pass through the rad? in which case wouldnt all the water in the head (regardless of back, side, front, be fairly close in temperature? The only temp difference that would occur would be colder water(in rad) vs warmer water(all of it inside a heatsoaked lump of metal, the head)

'Splain me your logic
You are right about the fact that water pump blades cause a restriction on the path. But it basically doesn't matter from where the cool water comes to the turbo, as long it's taken upwards and the hot water from the turbo is free to rise and flow for example to the top of the rad. This way the cooler water flows through the turbo as long as there is difference in temperature before and after the turbo.

I know that GTX and MSM feed from the block, that's great and lower (also cooler) point than the water neck in front.
MSM returns to mixing manifold and GTX returns to heater return.
It's not matter of shitty design, it's a matter of principle and how things are supposed to be done
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Vuti - welcome, and prove your method is better. With data. of both set-ups.
Better for me is when my coolant isn't boiling at the turbo after shutdown.
I can prove it with a video or a .mp3, which do you like the best?
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:22 PM   #53
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how much heat difference do you anticipate between the block feed at the back of the head, vs the water neck in front? once the fluid has passed from the bottom of the water pump to the rear of the head, it has probably absorbed a significant amount of heat already so delta T from RAD bottom tank to rear of head is probably much larger than delta T from rear of head to water neck/RAD top tank, no? So the real effective delta T would be from RAD bottom tank/water pump area to RAD top tank/ water neck area. Since larger delta T would yield more effective thermal siphoning, wouldn't the system only be effective when the largest delta T is being utilized, going from warm, to really hot, versus going from pretty hot to really hot?

Just to add more confusion, since we have proven poor flow in our cars which are known to fry cyl 4, maybe the block feed is actually hotter than the water neck on front? So removing the RAD and pump from the circuit and just considering temperature gradients between block feed and water neck (front of block), potentially the water neck is your low temp location, and block feed would be hotter due to local recirculation in the block, so now your low temp area is physically higher than your high temp area, which was your initial complaint of the commonly accepted design.

and yet another theory: Once you turn the engine off, the fluid sitting in the block will reach equilibrium so then your delta T goes to zero between the block feed and water neck (since we are assuming all fluid is blocked to the RAD.) since the block will retain heat longer than the turbo will retain heat since it has a lower surface area/mass ratio, your turbo should cool off more rapidly than your engine theoretically. so then your turbo will actually be the cool location and assuming colder water wants to flow to hotter water, it will try flowing away from the turbo in both directions, moving into the block in both locations right? which since this is now a closed loop system, there will actually be zero flow since the two water lines from the turbo will oppose each other

Last edited by rigidbigelsworth; 01-15-2014 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:40 PM   #54
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Ok Hyper, I get it, you made a new account.

Seriously, assuming water stays in the lines after the car shuts off, the main method of cooling is conduction, it doesn't matter which side goes where as long as there's water where it needs to be.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:44 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuti View Post
Better for me is when my coolant isn't boiling at the turbo after shutdown.
trying to figure out why you're seeing over 120C at your turbo in the water...
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuti View Post
Better for me is when my coolant isn't boiling at the turbo after shutdown.
I can prove it with a video or a .mp3, which do you like the best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuti View Post
It's not matter of shitty design, it's a matter of principle and how things are supposed to be done
Its a matter of your hypothesis based on a vague statement by garrett (notice I didn't say incorrect, just vague because it doesn't take into account any specifics to different cars/engines)

You seem to be pretty passionate when you argue these things, and that's cool more power to ya. What happens if you still "can hear the water boiling in the turbo" after you do this?

You seem to be convinced that your "solution" works, when you don't have evidence. Yet

Anywho, in for results
(you are going to be doing documented testing to prove your theory right?)
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by rigidbigelsworth View Post
how much heat difference do you anticipate between the block feed at the back of the head, vs the water neck in front? once the fluid has passed from the bottom of the water pump to the rear of the head, it has probably absorbed a significant amount of heat already so delta T from RAD bottom tank to rear of head is probably much larger than delta T from rear of head to water neck/RAD top tank, no? So the real effective delta T would be from RAD bottom tank/water pump area to RAD top tank/ water neck area. Since larger delta T would yield more effective thermal siphoning, wouldn't the system only be effective when the largest delta T is being utilized, going from warm, to really hot, versus going from pretty hot to really hot?

Just to add more confusion, since we have proven poor flow in our cars which are known to fry cyl 4, maybe the block feed is actually hotter than the water neck on front? So removing the RAD and pump from the circuit and just considering temperature gradients between block feed and water neck (front of block), potentially the water neck is your low temp location, and block feed would be hotter due to local recirculation in the block, so now your low temp area is physically higher than your high temp area, which was your initial complaint of the commonly accepted design.

and yet another theory: Once you turn the engine off, the fluid sitting in the block will reach equilibrium so then your delta T goes to zero between the block feed and water neck (since we are assuming all fluid is blocked to the RAD.) since the block will retain heat longer than the turbo will retain heat since it has a lower surface area/mass ratio, your turbo should cool off more rapidly than your engine theoretically. so then your turbo will actually be the cool location and assuming colder water wants to flow to hotter water, it will try flowing away from the turbo in both directions, moving into the block in both locations right? which since this is now a closed loop system, there will actually be zero flow since the two water lines from the turbo will oppose each other
Nice thoughts... But simplify the situation.
When the water in my turbo is boiling after the shutdown it is f*cking hot compared to the water anywhere in the block. As long the turbo is f*cking hot the water will flow through it. But for it to run by itself it needs to rise up, thermal siphoning depends on it. And the only place for the feed lower enough is in the bottom of the block next to the oil feed (94-95, MSM's and 1.6).
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuti View Post
Better for me is when my coolant isn't boiling at the turbo after shutdown.
I can prove it with a video or a .mp3, which do you like the best?
No, I'm an engineer, and the crazies here generally demand better.

Prove your method is better, with back to back tests with actual data. In-line temp sensors in the water lines before and after the turbo. Get temp data for both routing methods, and show your method is better and by how much.

Quantitative data

not qualitative (I hear boiling vs. I don't hear boiling)

otherwise I NO CARE

Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 01-15-2014 at 03:55 PM. Reason: changed formatting a bit, for affect...
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:54 PM   #59
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hey gays! if I rotate my turbo 20 I can have better cooling when the car is off, and uneven oil issues (the actual thing that cools a turbo) when the car is running!
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:54 PM   #60
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I don't remember the last time my turbo wasn't hot enough to boil water. That's a neat trick.
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