[carnage] Savington throws a rod, hilarity ensues - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-03-2009, 11:32 AM   #61
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sav, why wouldnt' you wanna do pistons "while yer in there"?

if it's a matter of time to get them, I have a set of supertech's in my shed with rings and pins and all that that are ready to go. you order me a new set and I'll ship you these!

they are 83.5mm/8.6:1cr size. I kinda want the 84mm ones for the displacement. and maybe higher compression just for *****.
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:46 AM   #62
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go low-comp sav, you won't regret it. The torque is wonderful.
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Old 03-03-2009, 12:09 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
sav, why wouldnt' you wanna do pistons "while yer in there"?

if it's a matter of time to get them, I have a set of supertech's in my shed with rings and pins and all that that are ready to go. you order me a new set and I'll ship you these!

they are 83.5mm/8.6:1cr size. I kinda want the 84mm ones for the displacement. and maybe higher compression just for *****.
Don't have the money, don't want to find a machinist I trust enough to do a good re-bore, don't want to drop the compression (witty bitty turbo, remember). I don't really need the pistons, either; I think at 250-275whp, rods and stock pistons can be bulletproof.

Jason, ARP head studs because they're reusable so if I ever want to go back in for something, it'll save me a little hassle later on.

Last edited by Savington; 03-03-2009 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:03 PM   #64
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Stock head bolts are reusable too. They're not the torque-to-yield type.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:11 PM   #65
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Don't forget to drill and tap the oil pan while you've got it all apart. Might as well get a bung welded on for your oil temp sending unit considering you can do it yourself in the FSAE lab one day.

Last edited by cjernigan; 03-03-2009 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:19 PM   #66
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Don't forget to drill and tap the oil pan while you've got it all apart. Might as well get a bung welded on for your oil pressure sending unit.
um...bung for oil temp, right? I suggest you put that on the back, passenger side of the pan. I think the oil coming out of my turbo is hitting the sensor because it jumps to 280* quickly.

Savington has a different pressure sensor, but I have the 1.6 sensor and I had begi make a chinga to put it here:
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:37 PM   #67
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I simply used thermal epoxy and glued a "naked" sensor to the rear of the oil pan. Works great.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:48 PM   #68
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The replace-the-rods plan sounds reasonable as an interim solution to keep this from happening to the new block.
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:12 PM   #69
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um...bung for oil temp, right?
Yeah, my bad.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The more I think about it, the more I never want to deal with this again.

Can anyone give me a reason not to do the following:

-Get the new 99 motor, pull the head and pan, remove pistons and rods
-Have a bung welded into the pan for the oil drain (if I have the motor out, may as well)
-Replace ONLY THE RODS with Belfab/ETD rods
-Put pistons/new rods back into the motor with no ring/hone work at all (96k on them right now)
-Install my billet OPGs (I have them, may as well throw them in)
-Size new main bearings, install
-ARP hardware, fresh head gasket, spacerless coolant reroute, new timing belt/water pump

Realistically, I have no 300whp aspirations. I'll eventually do a basic water injection setup and max the 2554R out completely, but I like the spool of this turbo and the largest I'll ever go is a 2560 if I do change. I don't think I need pistons; rods are the only thing I NEED to change, and OPGs are a paid-for safety item.

I have neither the time nor the money to do a full build right now. The rods are $400ish, everything else should bring the total to around $700 including the water pump and timing belt. Reusing the pistons and rings lets me save 99% of the machining costs, and they don't really need to be changed anyway.
For 75 bucks you can go buy a bottle brush hone and a cheap electric drill and hone the cylinders yourself. It's not exactly complicated. Pull the trigger, move up and down. Read up on how to do the ring gaps right. Then you'll get good seal on your bottom end and it will be much better. Plus honing will increase the piston/cylinder wall clearance which is a huge plus considering you'll be running more power than stock, so the need for larger clearances is merited.

IMO, there are two possible scenarios:

a) put a stock engine in and run it. Don't **** with it, don't take it apart, don't have to do ****.

b)Buy a gasket set, sealants, cleaners, etc etc, hone for extra clearance, new rings gapped properly, clean pistons, new rods, check the rod bearing clearances with plastigauge, leave the main bearings alone, OP gears if you must, torque everything down and put it back together with new seals and gaskets, new WP, TB, idler, and tensioner. Then it's done.

If you do half now, half later, you'll have twice as much time in it and a lot more money. Either do it all now and be done or wait till you can do it all. You don't build engines in steps.
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:59 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
For 75 bucks you can go buy a bottle brush hone and a cheap electric drill and hone the cylinders yourself. It's not exactly complicated. Pull the trigger, move up and down. Read up on how to do the ring gaps right. Then you'll get good seal on your bottom end and it will be much better. Plus honing will increase the piston/cylinder wall clearance which is a huge plus considering you'll be running more power than stock, so the need for larger clearances is merited.
Local shop is charging me $100. $75 for a bottle hone and $25 for knowing what the **** to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post

IMO, there are two possible scenarios:

a) put a stock engine in and run it. Don't **** with it, don't take it apart, don't have to do ****.

b)Buy a gasket set, sealants, cleaners, etc etc, hone for extra clearance, new rings gapped properly, clean pistons, new rods, check the rod bearing clearances with plastigauge, leave the main bearings alone, OP gears if you must, torque everything down and put it back together with new seals and gaskets, new WP, TB, idler, and tensioner. Then it's done.

If you do half now, half later, you'll have twice as much time in it and a lot more money. Either do it all now and be done or wait till you can do it all. You don't build engines in steps.
Yep, I agree. I am doing a new TB/WP, leaving the idler/tension pulleys alone, and replacing the head gasket. I believe I can reuse the head studs, my valve cover gasket was replaced somewhat recently, doing a CAS o-ring, and a throttle body gasket. What other gaskets do I need to look at?
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:11 PM   #72
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Quote:
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Local shop is charging me $100. $75 for a bottle hone and $25 for knowing what the **** to do with it.



Yep, I agree. I am doing a new TB/WP, leaving the idler/tension pulleys alone, and replacing the head gasket. I believe I can reuse the head studs, my valve cover gasket was replaced somewhat recently, doing a CAS o-ring, and a throttle body gasket. What other gaskets do I need to look at?
Only reason I mention doing the tensioners is because I recently had one fail at 147k miles. If you buy a TB kit on ebay you can get it all for cheap. Not a must though, but a if-you-can it's a good idea. I've never done them till now and never seen one fail on anything else I've done a TB on, but this was high mileage. Motor runs noticeably quieter at idle with new tensioners, which is a nice plus. Apparently they've always been a little noisy.

Gasket wise, I think you're fine. The oil pan uses RTV and a couple of rubber seals. I used the "super black" RTV. It's like JB-weld/silicone mixed together. I spent probably 2 hours preping the pan, windage tray, and block before gluing everything together. Getting 100% of the old gasket **** out is important for a leak free seal. I utterly HATE having things that leak, so I like to do it once and do it right when it comes to gaskets and whatnot. I can honestly say I haven't added oil to my car since I turbo'd it. And without checking I can tell you it's full. Do front and main bearing seals too. All that **** comes with an engine gasket set, just buy the set off Egay or mazda. I've got an egay kit sitting that I got for like 45 bucks.

Tell the shop to "hone the motherfucking **** out of it, it's for a turbo engine". They'll know what to do.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:43 AM   #73
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Sav, Pat's right. Do tensioners, front main, cam seals, rear main, thermostat gaskets(if necessary)

You said the engine has 96K, so I'd do it to be safe. Seals and **** are cheap and the engine out of the car, so it's easier. You might consider trans seals as well, if the mileage is getting up there. I noticed you were running the six speed, so you only need an a tailshaft seal and an oil seal. You can just use high temp black silicone on the piece in the bellhousing that the throw out bearing slides on. (what the hell is this called?)
Something I always do when I'm reassembling a miata engine is to check the oil pump. There is a metal sleeve in the pump that I always clean, buff and polish on a bench buffer. You can shim the spring with a washer for slightly higher oil pressure, as well.

Just throwing stuff out......
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Old 03-04-2009, 03:10 AM   #74
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Depending on the cost of the tensioners I'll do them. If they do end up failing, it's easy enough to do them later. I am going to be very crunched on cash since I'm also overhauling all the oil/water lines (switching to a nylon-braided -10 drain and -6an water hardlines).

Bearings are retardedly cheap for this motor, which is good.
ETD rods, $407 shipped
OEM rings, $110 for the set
Beck/Arnley bearings, $23 for stock size or $13 for .010/.020 over
Hone labor, $100

Gasket/seals set, plus a TB/WP/WP gaskets, then the oil/water lines and fittings, and reroute stuff, and I think I'm set.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:06 AM   #75
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how can you buy bearings when you don't know where your **** is going to spec out?
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:22 AM   #76
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Sav- sounds like a good recipe to me. Are you planning to do the main bearings as well, or just the rods?
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:27 AM   #77
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****. It's within the VIN range, but it was an auto motor and only a few of the cars in the range were affected. I'll check the endplay when I throw it in, but I don't think it will be an issue that needs immediate involvement.
From what I understand, the "VIN range" includes all '99s. Also, from what I understand, since the automatic transmissions don't put any meaningful thrust load on the crankshaft, even one with the incorrect bearing could go a long, long time without the failure occurring as it would with the thrust loads from a clutch. That said, the motor is out of the car, why not just pop a new/correct #4 thrust bearing in there and forget all about it?
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:05 AM   #78
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You can get a magnetic base dial indicator for 30-40 bucks and then he can measure the endplay himself. No point in "fixing it" if it ain't broke. But it would be foolish to do all this without checking it and have to pull the engine again. Building an engine takes time and money. Details are important. Miss one and you've wasted all your time and money for nothing.

As for bearings, I doubt you have the know-how and tools to do bearings. Just to do the rods you'll need to get some plastigauge and a set of feeler gauges. Assembling engines is a lot more than turning bolts. If you don't know what you're doing, you'll probably **** something up or at minimum, make it worse than it was before you fixed/improved it.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:29 AM   #79
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I agree, check the runout. IIRC just because it is a '99 and is in the VIN range does not necessarily mean it has the wrong throwout bearing. If you are pulling the oil pan then you may be able to measure the clearance directly with a feeler gauge.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:36 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
As for bearings, I doubt you have the know-how and tools to do bearings.
I'm curious now.

Wrist pins I can understand; those take some finessing. But main bearings? You need a torque wrench, some plasti-gauge, a dial indicator and a prybar for endplay, and...?
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