BP Head Lifting
 

Does anyone have any experience with head lifting a BP? and how to fix it?

I had my car on the dyno today getting retuned on e85 and it started to lift the head at around 25ish PSI

Its been running with pump gas, 30psi and 300kws at all 4 wheels (engines in a 88 mazda 323 4wd) for years with no issues but running e85 has up'd the cylinder pressures and its started to lift.

Has arp studs but still not enough to hold it together.

I've not heard of any head lifting, you sure you didn't just pop the head gasket?

I've never heard of that either, but not a lot of people here run 30 lbs of boost. Who torqued the nuts on the head studs?

Also, I'm far from an expert, but I've never heard that different octane fuels cause higher cylinder pressures.... The resulting tuning can cause spikes, but not the fuel itself, unless detonation is occurring.

5 psi less, and head lifting? Me thinks years of 30psi weakened head gasket, and new found timing finished the job

I lifted a head once at 23 PSI. In my case, I kept looking for an answer and eventually found that my torque wrench was miscalibrated. I had torqued the head bolts to ~42 ft*lbs instead of 65.

I bought a beam type torque wrench and checked the calibration on it before reinstalling the new head. ARP bolts, mazda washers under the nuts, ARP lube, and 65 ft*lbs. Running 30 PSI on E85 without an issue for 8 months so far.

Very sure its just the head lifting, only pushing water into the over flow at high boost

Engine builder did, they were at 65ft*lb, yeah i couldn't find anyone else running this kind of boost either

You get more cylinder pressure on E85 because you need to use 30-35% more fuel to get the same power, we have the same issue on a friends laser as well and have just done a head gasket and a few mods to the head to try and keep it seated, but are yet to know if it has worked


Was done to 65ft*lb
We re-torqued the head on the dyno to 80 ft*lb so will find out today if that has helped at all, it might be to late, have read that some people have wreaked heads going this tight but cant confirm it, was worth a try anyway

Huh?

Ehh, I'm not buying it. There are a decent number of 350-400 whp cars running around without head issues.

What's your setup? What turbo is running 30, 25psi? What supporting mods? What engine? Bp05, 4w, 6pd?

What head gasket?

Engine builders reputation?

I've seen one or more of the above cause legit problems.

My car was making 400whp for years on pump gas without issues, its only the switch to E85 that has caused the head to lift,

My Build ThreadGIFTID v2.0 GTae - AMAZD

BP05 GTX Ported head, exh cam intake swap, supertech double valve springs, Ti retainers
JE Pistons at 8.2:1
Belfab Rods
Boundary Racing Oil pump
OE Head Gasket -copper coated
toyota 4age Quad throttles
Custom intake and Exhaust manifolds
Turbonetics GTK450
Bosch 1650cc injectors
Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pump

Engine build is very well known here and does many many race engines

ok i might have that wrong, its the more timing you can run that creates the higher cylinder pressure, it was also most Likely making more power on 25psi than it was at 30psi before

I hope you were on a dyno while tuning!!!! Get a snap of the dyno sheet!

(Cause this project has officially given me a hard on...)

To be fair, other than a couple 500 horsepower dyno queen miata, and that mythical 800hp drag miata, I don't know of many running similar setups.

The escort guys have run some big numbers, but they are 2wd as well.

You aren't lifting the head, but you probably blew the HG and need to disassemble, re-skim the head, and reassemble with a fresh gasket. There are at least a few users here who are running 25+psi with ARP studs and nobody has head gasket issues.

Higher cylinder pressure due to E85 is 100% BS. Cylinder pressure and torque are related, though.

265 kpa here with ARP studs -- no HG issues.

Why copper-coat the stock head gasket?

--Ian

Head gasket is not blown, only pushes water on high boost so head is differently lifting

Many before you have done exactly what you are doing today and few/none of them have lifted the head. The BP does not have a head lifting problem. Consider these facts carefully before you start trying to solve your problem.

LOL, I have, but the head has lifted, also this is not the first BP i know of that has lifted the head,

Link to other lifted head?

I think you might have a cracked water jacket, or crack in the head. Too many people have made stupid power without lifting the head. He'll, faefae didn't lifting his head,and that's saying something

fae never made more than 369hp.

True, but he also ran stupid high boost numbers, and self tuned, didn't he?

All's I'm saying, is if fae didn't fuck his up, how did this guy?

Although, not too many people make that number on a bp05, maybe that head is the key here

No link, but it is a good friend, it now hopefully fixed, but i wanted to know what other people had done

I have made over 400 for years and it was fine, only happened when getting closer to the 500hp level

My head gasket only leaked oil under high boost. What if the busted head gasket pressurizes the cooling system and pushes water out the break.

I stick by my earlier comment. Weakened head gasket let loose. Pull the head, and verify for all of us!

Sister car at 500+ wheel HP.

Head lifted, see water splash at end of video.

We are from little NZ, only 3 of us pushing the BP this far in the country.

I have since found the reason for it and rectified it.

We will sort the issue on this one too, but thank you all for the questioning.

No dyno queens here, the red 2WD has run 10.79@136 and is also been used for circuit racing too.

So at idle and low boost the head gasket is fine, not leaking, not pressurizing the cooling system etc

when we feed it high boost the head lifts and its pressurizing the cooling system

I expect when i pull the head I will see the leak between a cylinder and water jacket

Bp05 JRCozy?

Edit, saw the vvt. What was the fix?

This thread car AL4SPN is a BP26
JRCOZY is a BP6D

AL4SPN will soon be a BP4W

Not keen to share the fix due to condescending attitude Chris has received on here, all he was after was shared experiences.

But yes what the above says needs to be done, gaskets long gone from the lift, needs skim/new gasket and the mods I did to mine in the head.

Cylinder pressure from e85 and added timing (at lower boost) has lifted the head, is this not the point of using e85?
Cylinder pressure on pump, 30psi and the set timing made 300KW and no gasket/lift issues.

In our defense. 100+ teenage fucks come in yearly asking very similar questions, without any background, or credibility, and receive the same treatment. It's kinda the mtg.net way.
.that said, I challenge you to find a better forum for a shared knowledge base, especially one this deep and diverse.

More people have joined this forum because of the forthcoming attitude, others willingness to spare no detail, all in the name of fun.

So, again, I inquire. What particular mods have you done to the head to make it last at the elevated power levels?

Don't confuse condescension with incredulity. He came in blaming his problems on an assumed issue that virtually nobody in this community has ever encountered. We responded with the appropriate level of skepticism.

Its not an assumed issue, we know what the issue is, just because you haven't had the issue doesn't mean no one does, this isn't a back yard job, issue came up on a dyno at a well known and very good shop, and confirmed by the tuner

I was only asking if any one had experience with it and if any one had a fix

Disabuse yourself of the assumptions you've made regarding my perception of you, your car, your tuner, your setup, etc. They're all incorrect. I took the limited information you provided, called on my knowledge of similar setups, and gave the best advice I was able to give.

I've been playing with boosted BPs for the better part of a decade. I'm not new to this community or this engine. If I haven't personally encountered an issue or known someone who has encountered an issue, I can confidently say that it's not a common issue. I've seen multiple 450+whp cars on stock MLS gaskets that don't lift cylinder heads, so when you tell me with 100% confidence that you lifted your head at 400whp, what am I supposed to think?

If you really have lifted the head, and your friend has encountered the same issue and has a fix, and you came here looking to see if anyone else has the problem, your question has been answered. It's not common, and you and your friend are the only two people I've personally encountered that have had this issue. Instead of assuming that we're insulting you by being justifiably skeptical of the problem you're having, it would be awesome if you would share the fix for the issue so we can all learn something from your car and setup.

Ive been playing with BPs for 10 years too.
I love the thing, that's why I stuck with it, but threw the gearbox in the rubbish about 8 years ago now.

I have done something similar to this:
The great ARP Head Stud Washer debate
I read this thread which lead to an investigation which shocked me.
I then created a fix.

To be fair my first engine I only torqued to 60ftlb due to the many "miata fourm" threads I read about the head crushing, where as ARP said 70-80ftlb?
To compare people building 4G63 engines in NZ are using L19 ARP studs at over 100ftlb. This is for 500WHP+ street cars.

I had a friend with a RB26 Skyline GT-R that only pressurized the radiator into the overflow at high boost. It was a blown headgasket that didn't leak at other times except high boost.

I live 12 miles from the guy with the 633whp drag Miata with a BP05 who hasn't lifted the head. Can you honestly blame a guy for being skeptical that it isn't simply a HG problem? It's just not something we've ever seen.

I got the same disbelief when I told people I had dropped an oil sprayer, so I posted pics. People here are fair. If they call bullshit, just answer their questions and they'll come around.

So basically, wider washers, eh?

Oh shut up. I posted my 398hp dyno sheet. From when i was running a little gt3071 which is btw an excellent hairdryer for prepubescent females and illegal immigrants. That was at 21psi, sea level.

Yes, being the living embodiment of God's hatred of the BP, I repeatedly ran 44psi peak boost. I also sprayed the liquid volume of lake erie in meth into the motor at the same time. So that means my cylinder pressures were omgg soooo high cus i was burning alcohol and alcohol burns when I swab my eurethra therefore fuck you, no, cylinder pressure = hp so for a given amount of hp you have the same damn pressures, assuming the same motor. This asanine proposition entirely deserves the previous run on sentence.

Fyi your car is really cool but OP you and your mad skilz tun3r r ignoring r&d and the measured results. My car is full of hate but I ran a stock Mazda HG w/ arp regular not oversized studs. By the way.. Regarding cyl pressures my motor has indeed seen its share of detonation because Fuck You and still had no Olympic Lift HG.

This is just on data point but the current highest hp miata that actually functions like a car vs garage ornament is Soviets <tagg-] and he has a stock hg too. I think you fucked up w the copper Condom hg buddy

That or you are just too damn nice to the car. Come on. Treat it like a woman.

I'll widen yr washer bae

It's good to see that Fae has recovered his account from whoever hijacked it recently and used it to post nice things. :D

And I'll make your head lift.

:rofl:

one time i didnt torque my head down well and blew out a brand new head gasket.

100% head lifted.

As a guy who will never see this kind of boost I don't need fix. But r u really saying people attitude was bad so u not sharing fix.

So we r the ones with an attitude problem.

OK sure

Seems like the adult way to handle it to me.

Then you keep posting to what rub in our faces that you know something we dont.
You came here for help but will give none. Yeah that's the way to live.


Shouldn't you be out pushing old ladies down for sport or sucker punching people on YouTube for amusement

"Not keen to share the fix due to condescending attitude Chris has received on here, all he was after was shared experiences."

Fuck off.

It's so great having Fael back. I'm laughing my head off.

You don't know what you had until it's gone :likecat:

BP Head Lifting
 

Please tell us about the fix for the problem we don't ever have. I'm on the edge of my seat.

It's obviously the same fix that 1200 horsepower supras use!

Because 400 whp miata = mega supra.....

In all honesty, two epic builds.

Non conformance to grow the community through shared experience- not mega, kinda douche-y.




And, am I the only one who noticed a pattern?

"Hey guys, lifted the head. Anyone have any fixes"

No, we dont lift heads. Other problem?

"No, it's a known issue, and my friend knows how to fix it"......

Oh, wow. Usually we see x,y,z causeing issues. You sure it's the head?

"Yes, I have direct experience with my friends build doing the same thing, and he fixed it. Don't tell me I don't have this issue"

Wow.

Friend "here's my admittedly baddass build doing the same thing. I know how to fix it, but I don't want to share"

"Yea"

Well, how do you fix it?

"Don't want to share, you guys weren't nice enough, but I know how to fix it"


......






If you had direct experience with the problem, and with a solution to the problem, why the f*ck did you post asking for suggestions?

This whole thread is about boners.

If your boyfriend can blow that hard, surely he can suck just as well.
Might help lift the head sooner.

If you copper plated your hg you wouldn't have had that problem.

I said we had done some mods to try and fix it but wasn't tested yet and asking if anyone else had any experiences with head lifting

Then the answer is no. We don't have experience with head lifting. Experience with several dozen other things, but not that.

Plenty of people here with stock head bolts and plenty here with arp head studs, so it's not the fasteners.
Plenty of people here making your power level, so it's not the power.
Nearly everyone here runs the stock HG, so it's not the head gasket (unless you're running a weird aftermarket one that isn't actually as good as the stock one).

Unless you guys are willing to tell us more about your issue instead of asking making vague assertions and accusing us of being unpleasant/impatient/etc, we really can't help.

Also, I would add that blowing coolant with no other symptoms does not necessarily mean your head is lifting. A blown HG can do that just as well. I once had this on a 10psi car -- and it would only do it on track -- never on the street.

I'm not saying it's not head lifting in your case, just saying that blowing coolant is not determinative.

So dud u fx th head lift

but the $10 ebay Evergreen brand HG was much cheaper.

No issues so far, had the head skimmed and the head stud\nut bosses machined to remove where the washers had dug in, used the bigger arp washers and tightened to 90ft/lb, doesn't push any water at the moment but have only had it up to 20psi ran out of time to get it tuned again before an event here.

Confident it is fixed tho, JRCOZY motor has seen 30psi and a few 1/4 mile runs and no longer pushes water.

congratz u r also like 1/5 miata to ever push above 2bar. oh wait 323 thats more manly nvrmd

mph in qtr plz

JRCOZY Best - 10.79@136
Mine - 11.2@125 - i think

I've been absent, so pardon my ignorance. ...

But was the major breakthrough, to not use the little ARP washers, but the stock size ones instead? Or are we using fender washers now?

Pretty much, my head had big marks in the bosses where the washers sit, where they had compressed the materiel and sunken in, whether you want to believe that the head lifted and caused the issue I was having or not, this shows there is something not 100% right, others have found this problem with many other engines 2jz's seem to be the most documented or most prone to it, arp actually ships the 2jz kits now with the bigger washers as standard

damn fast