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Old 07-02-2011, 10:07 PM   #1
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Default Need...more...brainpower (help me get my build running plz)

So I finished my build on wednesday and went to start it with the help of 240tomiata. Needless to say, it didn't start...not even so much as a sputter. So I'm lookin for some ideas on what to check. Here's the list o' important info:

90 chassis
brain built ms1 (standalone harness wired for vtps)
94 block
99 head, im, and tb (with associated sensors)
99 exhaustake cam
ebay 1:1 fpr
walbro 190lph hp pump
wiring harness is amphenoled

I had it running on cops before the teardown w/1.6tb, bmw vtps, stock fuel pump, and unopened 94 block.

Checklist:

*Fuel pump: comes on when the key goes to the on position and when cranking. Took it out of the tank and worked the line over that goes from the pump to the hard line and installed new rubber.
*Fuel lines: no leaks, lines had/have fuel in them,front hard line was hooked up as return, then I swapped it to make sure I wasn't mixing it up which didn't prove fruitful
*FPR: gauge is showing no pressure with lines hooked up either way and there is no apparent difference with the pressure adjustment all the way in or out (screw type that is the vac input). Pulled the top half apart to make sure nothing was bound up and found nothing alarming. Going to hook up a verified pressure gauge tomorrow to make sure there is/isn't pressure
*Spark: pulled plug out, grounded it, and got spark. Did it on #1, #2 and #3 cylinders. There was unburned fuel on the plug. I also had this thought that the cops didn't have enough reach to get to the plug with the escort vc, did quick measurements and it reaches fine
*Timing: Doubly verified (myself and a good more competent than me friend) when the engine was assembled but am going to be checking it one more time tomorrow. Reset it again. It is as correct as far as I can tell.
*Exhaustake: set up to the 197 advance that many have recommended as a starting point. Also going to double check that tomorrow. Set the exhaustake cam up the same as the stock intake cam. It wasn't the same fyi
*MS: Everything looks on the up and up in mt except for the weird tps stuff and the vac not going below 94
*TPS: only sensor that doesn't appear to be working properly. Double checked the wiring with what Joe Perez recommended and the FSM's. Some weird voltages and resistances going on in there. Here they are:
between pin C and B: 4.5V-4.99V when cycling tps (27Ω-3.7KΩ)
between pin A and B: .3V-4.9V when cycling tps (∞)
between pin C and A: 4.3V-~0V when cycling tps (3.7KΩ-27Ω)
Also when it is plugged into the car and attempted to be calibrated the reading is 222 for closed throttle and 250 for wot. Currently in mapdot w/ the tps unplugged
*Grounds: They are all fine (.3Ω between engine and chassis). Forgot to hook up the grounding strap to the trans/shelf, it is hooked up now
*Amphenol: Checked continuity between each sensor and the ECU pins. They all have continuity.
*CAS: Voltages are correct...the ground is 35Ω though. After reworking the grounds it is down to .2Ω
*Injectors: Injectors are all 12.3Ω +/-5%
*Fuel filter: brand ****** nude
*Vacuum: I can feel vac being drawn through the line going to ms and I capped off everything that doesn't need to be hooked up to get the car to start.

Compression is 140psi for #1, #2, and#3. It is 150psi for #4. Also I don't think the tester was getting the best seal (first test on #1 cylinder was 90psi, followed by 135psi, and the last one was 140psi)

Any input is grrrrrreatly appreciated!

Last edited by astroboy; 07-06-2011 at 01:59 AM. Reason: Checked more things today
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:28 PM   #2
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Spray some starting fluid in, if it starts then fueling is your issue.

The 99 tps has a 5v refrence(from ms) signal (to ms) and a ground, I forget the excat order but I can look at my car for you if needed.
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Old 07-02-2011, 11:31 PM   #3
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The way I understand it should be (top to bottom looking at the plug whilst plugged into the tps) pin C is the 5V ref (which it is), pin B is ground (which it also is), and pin A is the signal to ms.
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Old 07-02-2011, 11:46 PM   #4
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That sounds right. What are your readings in ts ?
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:06 AM   #5
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Double check spark on all four, or at least 2 and/or three. Aka: both trigger wires. Or are you running sequential?
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:03 PM   #6
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There are only 2 trigger wires for me. I will be checking that also in a bit. Also I am going to write down what mt is saying about the tps...although the car should start or at least sputter w/out the tps working.
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:32 PM   #7
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I may have missed it but have you calibrated the TPS? Use the "get current" button with no throttle and 100% throttle. I suppose if it wasn't calibrated it's possible that the MS could be going into flood clear mode and injecting no fuel. I don't think it's likely, but OTOH it's easy to check.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92Miata View Post
That sounds right. What are your readings in ts ?
When I get current for no throttle the reading is 222 and full throttle is 250.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Double check spark on all four, or at least 2 and/or three. Aka: both trigger wires. Or are you running sequential?
I am not running sequential; checked #2 and #3, both produced spark.

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Originally Posted by ScottFW View Post
I may have missed it but have you calibrated the TPS? Use the "get current" button with no throttle and 100% throttle. I suppose if it wasn't calibrated it's possible that the MS could be going into flood clear mode and injecting no fuel. I don't think it's likely, but OTOH it's easy to check.
When I calibrated the tps MT told me "something looks funny. Value should be 0 and 250" or something very close to that.


I redid the timing. Looked like it jumped a tooth, so it is looking proper now (only took 3 tries to get it perfect). Also I took the exhaustake out and verified the cam was set up properly (verified it against the stock intake cam). The lobes were off a bit so I made it the same and reinstalled. Lastly I remembered (whilst pooping) that I didn't have a ground strap hooked up (the one that goes from the shelf to the transmission) so I hooked that ***** up.

When I gave it a crank again there was no glory :( Perhaps I am not getting a good seal on the fuel pump line (in tank).
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:48 AM   #9
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Can you take a picture of the timing belt with the valve cover off? Cams can go on two different ways with the pins and slots in the sprockets, if one or both are wrong it won't start, although I believe one incorrect setting results in backfires out the intake.
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:15 AM   #10
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If your tps is reading somewhere above I think 70% wether its working or not, just the static reading. The car will go into flood clear mode with many many cars and ecus and it wont open the injectors at all. so unplug it completely and try.

Dann
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Can you take a picture of the timing belt with the valve cover off? Cams can go on two different ways with the pins and slots in the sprockets, if one or both are wrong it won't start, although I believe one incorrect setting results in backfires out the intake.
Here they are (I also turned the engine to TDC on #1):




Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
If your tps is reading somewhere above I think 70% wether its working or not, just the static reading. The car will go into flood clear mode with many many cars and ecus and it wont open the injectors at all. so unplug it completely and try.

Dann
When we were trying to get her going the other day we had it unplugged. I put it to mapdot until I can figure out what's going on with the tps.
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:32 PM   #12
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So am I doing it wrong guys? The timing looked good to me, anybody care to second that or set me on the rite path?
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:15 PM   #13
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:15 PM   #14
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Post your msq files and what firmware your running so we can check it over.
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Old 07-04-2011, 10:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaky Roadster View Post
Thanks. Those tiny pics suck, so difficult to see how the cams are positioned.

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Post your msq files and what firmware your running so we can check it over.
Ok, I'll do that later tonight/tomorrow morning.
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Old 07-04-2011, 10:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Thanks. Those tiny pics suck, so difficult to see how the cams are positioned.
This is the important one, showing the front lobes on each cam pointing outwards, like you have yours.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:13 PM   #17
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Well that's good to know. Thanks man. I am going to dig into the fuel system good tomorrow because I have seen spark and have verified timing.

If only there was a way my 90 CAS could be 180 out on the 99 head :( That would be such an easy fix.
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:00 AM   #18
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Be gentle guys. I haven't messed with it yet (partly because I don't know wtf I am doing).
Attached Files
File Type: msq new engine first start.msq (34.8 KB, 89 views)
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:10 AM   #19
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Only thing i see in the msq i would change is your cranking RPM change that up to about 350rpm, that rpm is the point at which ms thinks the motor is running.

Othen then that it should start, try starter fluid and see if it runs for a second if it does then you know you have a fueling issue.
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:45 AM   #20
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We put the rpm's down that low because that is about what rpm we were seeing from the starter. I don't think we saw 350 rpm's ever.
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