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Old 04-16-2012, 05:34 PM   #81
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Just find some curves. Nobody will keep up with you.

I dig the green Dart though. Have a '66 Sport Fury in the garage.

We crave real data here. Of course, that stuff tends to be proprietary, but I would love a repository of real test data.

The other thing I'd like to know . . . does anyone make their filters in the USA? It would be worth extra to me to buy those -- all else being equal.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:15 PM   #82
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Why did our oil thread turn into a double penetration welcome thread?

Meet and greet is for meeting and greeting. Oil filter thread is for oil filter conversation/criticism/questions/etc.....

Fram filters are on the bottom of my list. I've used dozens of filters on dozens of applications over the years, no "lab testing" required AND I share my opinion on the forums FOR FREE!!! BEAT THAT!!!

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Old 04-16-2012, 08:01 PM   #83
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Just find some curves. Nobody will keep up with you.

I dig the green Dart though. Have a '66 Sport Fury in the garage.

We crave real data here. Of course, that stuff tends to be proprietary, but I would love a repository of real test data.

The other thing I'd like to know . . . does anyone make their filters in the USA? It would be worth extra to me to buy those -- all else being equal.
Thanks.

The Scamp is my daughter's Slant 6 car I built for her. She gets the keys when she passes her black belt test in Shotokan! Old Mopars are underated! We also have a propane boosted Slant in the club that puts down a little over 200 RWHP. I know there are faster slants but this one is a mild driver.

We make most of our oil filters in the USA and Canada. We recently brought cartridge filters back to the USA and when you see them I think you'll be impressed.

As far as test data let's see what Jay can do. Frankly we are very proud of our data but I'm not sure of the legal implications of competitor comparisons drawn on ISO testing from our own labs. Besides who'd believe us? I know I could put a few of you in the lab, teach you to do your own test, walk away and you'd still say we rigged it!

FWIW, I personally think it's a benefit to have manufacturers who just so happen to be major gearheads in your forums. We are professional guys and do our best to be good friends and as helpful as possible. Frankly I wouldn't be here if I wasn't a Miata owner and a boost head! Check out my really outdated website at buckshaw.com. Search the internet and you probably won't see me bash a competitor with drama or lies. I will be around and if you have a question be it filtration, coolants, Ignition, EFI or OBD2 drop me a line. Jay and I are on teams that are working towards making better next gen products and we are trying to tell marketing what racing parts are needed for the up and coming engines.

Before working at the brands I was in racing engine development for several companies and I also wrote and marketed OBD2 tuning software for some popular vehicles. I'm not here to thump my chest, merely give a few of you who might give a damn what kind of folks ARE behind Fram/Autolite/Prestone products.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:08 PM   #84
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so you guys gonna run autolite plugs in that miata?


If we make the correct heat range for boost I will certainly run them. If not I'll find something to run. I run Autolite's at 23 psi in the S10, I run them in my wife's 3.5 Honda V6, and I run them in a boosted LSX.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:19 PM   #85
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As far as test data let's see what Jay can do. Frankly we are very proud of our data but I'm not sure of the legal implications of competitor comparisons drawn on ISO testing from our own labs. Besides who'd believe us? I know I could put a few of you in the lab, teach you to do your own test, walk away and you'd still say we rigged it!


Makin' a mighty big assumption there.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:49 PM   #86
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Makin' a mighty big assumption there.
I don't think so - just take a read through some of the posts. Frankly you are being immature when I am being sincere.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:57 PM   #87
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I don't think so - just take a read through some of the posts. Frankly you are being immature when I am being sincere.
So, you are trying to seriously tell me that you think a forum that is renowned for being extremely cheap would turn up their nose at a filter of equal quality that would run us less $$?

Seriously, some of our top racers run a focking Wal-Mart oil that's $20 a gallon. And it's our most recommended brand by a long shot, even over brands such as Redline or Amsoil - but the hard data on it supports the cheap oil (Rotella T6, feel free to search the forums on it as evidence).

You are telling me that, if presented with hard data, we'd put our fingers in our ears, ignore it completely, and spend big $$$ on filters over Fram's? Even though we have a distinct history of doing the exact opposite of it if it saves us green?
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:09 PM   #88
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I've been using Fram for years. Haven't had any problems YET. Maybe its time for the switch over haha
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:22 PM   #89
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I like my $20 oil changes! Rotella FTW!

Hustler!! Enough exlamation marks!!! for you?!/!??!?!!!
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:34 PM   #90
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So, you are trying to seriously tell me that you think a forum that is renowned for being extremely cheap would turn up their nose at a filter of equal quality that would run us less $$?

Seriously, some of our top racers run a focking Wal-Mart oil that's $20 a gallon. And it's our most recommended brand by a long shot, even over brands such as Redline or Amsoil - but the hard data on it supports the cheap oil (Rotella T6, feel free to search the forums on it as evidence).

You are telling me that, if presented with hard data, we'd put our fingers in our ears, ignore it completely, and spend big $$$ on filters over Fram's? Even though we have a distinct history of doing the exact opposite of it if it saves us green?
What I'm saying is that I've seen guys thumb their nose at facts to stand on a soapbox of comfort or rock the status quo. I've done it myself refusing to run an Iridium plug under any boost because I listened to tribal knowledge. I had to do my own lab pressure bomb testing before I would try them on my S10 which takes about 4 hours to change plugs on because I was stuck in my thinking.

Fram gets crap for fiber end disks but a Bugatti Veyron uses them and charges $70 for a filter at the dealership. Some OE Toyota filters only use glue to support a pleat pack but those are OK. What I want to stress is that what matters in a filter is the performance of the media and the ability of the filter's structure to support that media for a given service interval.

Nobody needs to spend a fortune to get a decent filter or decent oil I agree. Are there benefits to premium products? I think if you are trying to run extended drain intervals specified for your new car you will benefit from premium oil and long life, high capacity filters. GM specs DEXOS because their modern engines need a quality motor oil. VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes do the same thing. GDI engines running 15 MPa mechanical fuel pumps and variable valve timing are certainly going to push a lower grade motor oil.

What I hope is that over time we can open up some minds and really explain the important elements of filtration. Watch the Fram challenge series if you haven't done so it's on You Tube.

Maybe this community will eventually appreciate the fact that an enthusiast that has the same car as they do just happens to work for a parts company and will relay your comments and concerns to people who care if need be.
And if it makes sense for us to post test data tell us what you want to see and we will ask our team.

I need help with my turbo setup frankly so I don't want to offend any of you guys whom I'm going to beg for assistance.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:59 PM   #91
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What if the cardboard is used because it's traditional or mixed traditional-and-synthetic media, instead of a pure synthetic wire backed media?

I'd use Fram without hesitation on any of my stock cars, but my Miata and RX7 only runs one of two filters. Admittantly, if I could find a good enough deal on the Fram XG, I'd consider using it on the RX7, but not the Miata.
Recap of earlier comment.

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Originally Posted by superdve View Post
What I'm saying is that I've seen guys thumb their nose at facts to stand on a soapbox of comfort or rock the status quo. I've done it myself refusing to run an Iridium plug under any boost because I listened to tribal knowledge. I had to do my own lab pressure bomb testing before I would try them on my S10 which takes about 4 hours to change plugs on because I was stuck in my thinking.

Fram gets crap for fiber end disks but a Bugatti Veyron uses them and charges $70 for a filter at the dealership. Some OE Toyota filters only use glue to support a pleat pack but those are OK. What I want to stress is that what matters in a filter is the performance of the media and the ability of the filter's structure to support that media for a given service interval.

Nobody needs to spend a fortune to get a decent filter or decent oil I agree. Are there benefits to premium products? I think if you are trying to run extended drain intervals specified for your new car you will benefit from premium oil and long life, high capacity filters. GM specs DEXOS because their modern engines need a quality motor oil. VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes do the same thing. GDI engines running 15 MPa mechanical fuel pumps and variable valve timing are certainly going to push a lower grade motor oil.

What I hope is that over time we can open up some minds and really explain the important elements of filtration. Watch the Fram challenge series if you haven't done so it's on You Tube.

Maybe this community will eventually appreciate the fact that an enthusiast that has the same car as they do just happens to work for a parts company and will relay your comments and concerns to people who care if need be.
And if it makes sense for us to post test data tell us what you want to see and we will ask our team.

I need help with my turbo setup frankly so I don't want to offend any of you guys whom I'm going to beg for assistance.
Sweetie, it feels like you are trying to cast yourself, extremely melodramatically at that, as a martyr trying to bring light to the masses but they won't listen.

The overall reaction here has been "Give us hard data". We like hard data. People giving grandiose and unbacked claims? Not so much.

I.e., I can say only good things about the Fram XG's quality - but not about the price. I can get similar quality for cheaper. I find that pretty much universally across Fram's lineup if it's a filter I'd be willing to use. If you want to open some minds? Post hard data. Give us information, not flashy Youtube videos which aren't exactly a good argument for X is better than Y, although they do have some good information on them but only in a generic sense.

As an example, and I can only speak for myself here, but if you could use an "engineered fiber end cap" or a cardboard endcap if you will, I'm not interested in the filter. I'm the wrong target market for that. I don't use cellulose media in any of the filters on any of my non-stock cars, nor do I use conventional oil on any of my non-stock cars. My stock cars? I don't give a ----, whatever is cheapest - and I hold zero prejudice against any maker if they are the cheapest for stock.

My advice? Don't come into someone else's place, make grandiose claims, and then fail to back it up with hard data. Give us hard data, back up your claims, give us a bit more to go on other than a few Youtube clips that, while informative, do nothing to establish X is superior to Y like we desire. My overall reaction remains firmly rooted in the above: Fram's XG line is definitely a high quality filter, but it's more expensive then filters that I've researched and found comparable to it based on published testing. But maybe I'm wrong - if I'm wrong, however, the only thing you are going to be able to do to convince me otherwise is give hard data to argue that.

P.S. I was serious. We're cheap ******* here. Give us hard data to show us that your filter is a better buy for our money, and we'll be all over them like Hustler on a Vietnamese lady-boy prostitute.
P.P.S. Give us hard data on if there is an Autolite sparkplug being better value for money than the NGK equivalent for boosted Miata's please. I'm about to pick up a set of NGK Iridiums, but if Autolite offers a better deal, I'd love to know.

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Old 04-16-2012, 10:05 PM   #92
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this community is a few things:

1. cheap

2. skeptical

3. relentless in its mockery

if you can get past those things, most of us are good people with a significant level of technical skill and understanding.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:14 PM   #93
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Recap of earlier comment.

Sweetie, it feels like you are trying to cast yourself, extremely melodramatically at that, as a martyr trying to bring light to the masses but they won't listen.

The overall reaction here has been "Give us hard data". We like hard data. People giving grandiose claims? Not so much.
Ok. Tell me what data you'd like to see and I'll run it past our leadership team.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:24 PM   #94
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My personal wants are ISO and/or any other relevant test data on the Fram eXtended Guard (XG), and if you need a specific vehicle for data, for a 2000 Mazda Millenia using either engine.... Heyyy, you are a Fram guy. Do you know of any drop-in replacements for the Miata larger than the 2000 Mazda Millenia filters?

I've been going back and forth on running that filter on the Miata, as opposed to my current Napa Platinum.

/Gospeed? You wanted some stuff I believe too?
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:30 PM   #95
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Recap of earlier comment.

P.P.S. Give us hard data on if there is an Autolite sparkplug being better value for money than the NGK equivalent for boosted Miata's please. I'm about to pick up a set of NGK Iridiums, but if Autolite offers a better deal, I'd love to know.
Autolite's XP Ir's add a platinum button on the sidewire to use in wasted spark applications. If you are running GM coils in conventional format I'd probably use our XS, (Motorcycle Ir series), as you do not need sidewire electrode protection with COP coils. Plus the XS's come in a "2" heat range which is 2 heat ranges colder than the XP3924. (lower number in Autolite is colder)

I really want to test the XS3922 or XP3923's or another part number on my build on the dyno before I tell you to run them. That won't be until bad weather sets in as we are against the wall with Banish's MZR Cobra right now. The XP3923's are 1 heat range colder than stock but when I go over 15 psi I usually will start colder than that.

What NGK plug does everyone use? That will help.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:32 PM   #96
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Autolite's XP Ir's have a platinum button on the sidewire to use in wasted spark applications. If you are running GM coils in conventional format I'd probably use our XS, (Motorcycle Ir series), as you do not need sidewire electrode protection with COP coils. Plus the XS's come in a "2" heat range which is 2 heat ranges colder than the XP3924. (lower number in Autolite is colder)

I really want to test the XS3922 or XP3923's or another part number on my build on the dyno before I tell you to run them. That won't be until bad weather sets in as we are against the wall with Banish's MZR Cobra right now. The XP3923's are 1 heat range colder than stock but when I go over 15 psi I usually will start colder than that.

What NGK plug does everyone use? That will help.
BKR7EIX is what I was about to go with, the BKR7E is a more typical recommended plug.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:48 PM   #97
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BKR7EIX is what I was about to go with, the BKR7E is a more typical recommended plug.
That is definitely an XS3922 which is in our motorcycle line.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:50 PM   #98
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Wow, I'm sold. Those are $16 for a set, as opposed to the ~$27 for the NGK's, nice!
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:22 PM   #99
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Wow, I'm sold. Those are $16 for a set, as opposed to the ~$27 for the NGK's, nice!
Just be sure to take a good look at the strap/electrodes after a pull and sneak up on boost. I know the plug is cold and all but I always check to be sure it's cold enough.

Also there is nothing wrong with the AR3923 racing plug but it might not be as cold as you want.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:23 PM   #100
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Our filtration lab is headquarted in Perrysburg, OH.
so open tours of said lab?
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