thoughts on removing oil injectors?
09-16-2010, 06:57 PM
#41
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But... but... not removing heat from the motor is precisely why the Hyper Coolant Reroute™ is so revolutionary and undisclosed! Don't you know we want to keep as much heat out of the oil and coolant as possible?!?
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09-16-2010, 07:05 PM
#42
Removing oil squirters is pretty typical on Honda B motors when converting to forged pistons, whether NA or FI. Thousands of LS/VTEC motors run fine without oil squirters with cast and forged pistons, and both FI and NA with both of those piston types. The reason I mention that is because the LS block has no squirters, but the B16 and B18C5 (GSR) motor do have them. Yet people building an LS/VTEC motor run their motors at the same redline typically making more power. Well machined and assembled, they have no issues. They are open deck, aluminum blocks though which could arguably allow them to cool more efficiently.
I wouldn't outright object to it being fine on a B6/BP, I'd want to see further field testing. I wouldn't want to do it on my motor though. For an all out build doing full coatings on rods, crank, pistons, etc I see it being a benefit for the reduced windage. In a build like that you are eeking out every ounce of power you can. Thats not a normal build though, and without seeing real world measurements and results I won't draw any sort of conclusion on it either way for a miata motor.
I wouldn't outright object to it being fine on a B6/BP, I'd want to see further field testing. I wouldn't want to do it on my motor though. For an all out build doing full coatings on rods, crank, pistons, etc I see it being a benefit for the reduced windage. In a build like that you are eeking out every ounce of power you can. Thats not a normal build though, and without seeing real world measurements and results I won't draw any sort of conclusion on it either way for a miata motor.
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09-16-2010, 07:25 PM
#43
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i am very interested to hear more oppinions.
i mentioned this in my build thread, and thought it was a tad out there... but this is solidifying my original thoughts.
i mentioned this in my build thread, and thought it was a tad out there... but this is solidifying my original thoughts.
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09-16-2010, 09:44 PM
#44
I think this argument calls for a poll in the form of:
a.) remove oil squirters and gain mad HP!
b.) leave the oil squiters there or you will detonate etc.!!!
c.) remove oil squirters for further benefit only if you are friction coating entire bottom end, knife edge-ing your crank, installing oil scrapers and so on...
All three sides seem to have valid points...let's vote!
NINJA edit!
d.) Say: "**** the world" if you're with Hustler!
a.) remove oil squirters and gain mad HP!
b.) leave the oil squiters there or you will detonate etc.!!!
c.) remove oil squirters for further benefit only if you are friction coating entire bottom end, knife edge-ing your crank, installing oil scrapers and so on...
All three sides seem to have valid points...let's vote!
NINJA edit!
d.) Say: "**** the world" if you're with Hustler!
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09-16-2010, 10:18 PM
#45
For me this would simple, if you don't trust your engine builder to give you good information, he probably shouldn't be building your engine in the first place.
On the other hand, the advice your engine builder gives is also based on what you have told him. If you told him you have deep pockets and want an all out build, I'm sure he has a few ideas to get you there. This would also take into consideration that you are aware that an all out build would need a re-freshening quite often and isn't built for longevity. After seeing your actions and what you've posted up on this forum so far, I hope you told him you were seeking nice things but are a cheap bastard that doesn't want to spend the money a second time. Being upfront with your expected outcome will benefit you more in the long run.
As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.
I do know one vendor in the Miata community that does have a successful motor program. Let me know if you can't figure out who that is.
On the other hand, the advice your engine builder gives is also based on what you have told him. If you told him you have deep pockets and want an all out build, I'm sure he has a few ideas to get you there. This would also take into consideration that you are aware that an all out build would need a re-freshening quite often and isn't built for longevity. After seeing your actions and what you've posted up on this forum so far, I hope you told him you were seeking nice things but are a cheap bastard that doesn't want to spend the money a second time. Being upfront with your expected outcome will benefit you more in the long run.
As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.
I do know one vendor in the Miata community that does have a successful motor program. Let me know if you can't figure out who that is.
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09-17-2010, 12:31 AM
#49
to anyone who wants to know what the deal is. I bought this mook's turbo kit here https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....39&postcount=1
He never sent the FPR/FMU or charge pipe. He assumed I didnt need them so he didnt send them, and now expects me to pay for shipping for them. Give me a break.
He never sent the FPR/FMU or charge pipe. He assumed I didnt need them so he didnt send them, and now expects me to pay for shipping for them. Give me a break.
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09-17-2010, 12:34 AM
#50
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If having oil squirters makes your oil hotter then they are doing their job by removing heat from the piston. Removing heat from the piston is far more important for reducing detonation in a forced induction engine than in a naturally aspirated one.
In a naturally aspirated engine that is sucking wind and fighting it's builder for every fraction of a horsepower I can see where a builder would want to lighten the fractions of ounces of oil present on the bottoms of the pistons or clinging to the cylinder walls needing to be removed by the oil control rings. But we are not those people. We have the benefit of technological advances made in the 1940s to force more air mass into our engines to overcome inefficiencies in engine design.
We have had enough threads regarding the uneven cooling and detonation issues in our engines to cause me not to desire the removal of items that may be beneficial to the cooling of my pistons when given the choice. Why tempt fate and take the chance? Is there a proven benefit that makes it equivalent or greater than the risk?
Did Mazda add unnecessary parts into our engines because they enjoy throwing away money? Aren't those longevity enhancing parts even more necessary when you demand more than twice the intended output from the same engine?
How many horsepower are you supposedly gaining from rolling the dice with your engine? One horsepower? One quarter horsepower? Why would that be worthwhile?
But it seems from your comments to other skeptics that you have made up your mind, so enjoy your squirterless engine and let us know how that works out.
In a naturally aspirated engine that is sucking wind and fighting it's builder for every fraction of a horsepower I can see where a builder would want to lighten the fractions of ounces of oil present on the bottoms of the pistons or clinging to the cylinder walls needing to be removed by the oil control rings. But we are not those people. We have the benefit of technological advances made in the 1940s to force more air mass into our engines to overcome inefficiencies in engine design.
We have had enough threads regarding the uneven cooling and detonation issues in our engines to cause me not to desire the removal of items that may be beneficial to the cooling of my pistons when given the choice. Why tempt fate and take the chance? Is there a proven benefit that makes it equivalent or greater than the risk?
Did Mazda add unnecessary parts into our engines because they enjoy throwing away money? Aren't those longevity enhancing parts even more necessary when you demand more than twice the intended output from the same engine?
How many horsepower are you supposedly gaining from rolling the dice with your engine? One horsepower? One quarter horsepower? Why would that be worthwhile?
But it seems from your comments to other skeptics that you have made up your mind, so enjoy your squirterless engine and let us know how that works out.
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09-17-2010, 10:04 AM
#52
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^ most logic in this thread so far, leave the squirters in. As for gaining power by loosing the mass of the oil clinging to the pistons and the cylinder walls, you need a vacuum pump. Vacuum in the crank case causes the oil to flow more freely, because there is no turbulence or resistance, it also increases the differentiation between combustion chamber and crank case pressure causing the piston rings to seal more efficiently which can net some hp . Im working on a inexpensive and effective solution right now. This is nothing new it has been around for years, but usually on things like high-end drag cars, nascar, and the like, just to expensive. Another thing to ponder is in engines with a lot of vacuum being used typically add oil squirters if they dont have them already.
Here's an example:http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr.+Gasket/720/6002/10002/-1
How well do they work? I can empty a gallon jug of water in a couple of seconds if I drop the breather hose down in it and rev the throttle by hand.
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09-17-2010, 11:33 AM
#53
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That is the type of inexpensive kit I'm trying to make for everyone, I just want to make sure it wil handle track abuse. It would only come on in boost so that the motor would not be constantly running. The expensive ones run off a belt and the pumps alone can range from $200-1000 and are usualy part of a drysump oiling system.
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09-17-2010, 01:18 PM
#54
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FWIW I believe FM is also starting to build there 2.0L motors with the oil squirters removed. And with Ceramic coatings on the piston tops.
I think the under side of the piston is getting over oiled and with loose fitting forged pistons all the extra oil can overwhelm the oil control rings and with the piston design it really doesn’t help piston cooling that much any way. It might be better to keep all the oil flow going to protecting bearings in highly stressed motors.
If you want to see a piston designed to work with oil squerters look at a 323 GTR piston. The ring lands are machined in cast Iron ring cast into the piston and the oil squirters squirt into a cavity in the piston through a hole in the bottom of the piston and it is routed to cool the cast Iron ring lands directly.
I also know of several other engines besides Honda where when they start making lots of power and are using forged pistons builders remove the squirters. Such as Neon SRT-4’s.
Bob
323 GTR piston
I think the under side of the piston is getting over oiled and with loose fitting forged pistons all the extra oil can overwhelm the oil control rings and with the piston design it really doesn’t help piston cooling that much any way. It might be better to keep all the oil flow going to protecting bearings in highly stressed motors.
If you want to see a piston designed to work with oil squerters look at a 323 GTR piston. The ring lands are machined in cast Iron ring cast into the piston and the oil squirters squirt into a cavity in the piston through a hole in the bottom of the piston and it is routed to cool the cast Iron ring lands directly.
I also know of several other engines besides Honda where when they start making lots of power and are using forged pistons builders remove the squirters. Such as Neon SRT-4’s.
Bob
323 GTR piston
Last edited by bbundy; 09-17-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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09-17-2010, 01:57 PM
#57
FM's response.
Hi Aaron,
We remove the squirters in almost all of our builds. The only ones we'd
keep them is in a full race engine where the extra oil consumption isn't
a big deal. Let us know if you have more questions, thanks.
Questions? Check out our FAQs
http://www.flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
===================
Jeremy Ferber
Technical Sales Manager
Flyin' Miata
We remove the squirters in almost all of our builds. The only ones we'd
keep them is in a full race engine where the extra oil consumption isn't
a big deal. Let us know if you have more questions, thanks.
Questions? Check out our FAQs
http://www.flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
===================
Jeremy Ferber
Technical Sales Manager
Flyin' Miata
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09-17-2010, 02:37 PM
#58
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Interesting because I think it is the extra oil consumption that has been causing my issues on the track and not so much for street use. Extra oil in the combustion chamber under full load is bad for many reasons.
The Wiseco pistons have huge passages between the underside of the piston and the oil control rings compared to stock as the Stock pistons have none. Also the bottom side of the new Wiseco pistons don’t seem to be shaped where squirting oil up on them would hit areas I would think would be close proximity to the heat sources on the top side thus Probably ineffective at sucking much extra heat out anyway.
Bob
The Wiseco pistons have huge passages between the underside of the piston and the oil control rings compared to stock as the Stock pistons have none. Also the bottom side of the new Wiseco pistons don’t seem to be shaped where squirting oil up on them would hit areas I would think would be close proximity to the heat sources on the top side thus Probably ineffective at sucking much extra heat out anyway.
Bob
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09-17-2010, 03:35 PM
#59
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[QUOTE=JayL;630954
As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.[/QUOTE]
Your only a few hours drive from Ocean,if you get a chance,take the trip and drive down and pay him a visit.He has since moved to a new and bigger shop,this new place has all the goodies inside.It's well worth the trip to see all the crazy NA cars,Ocean is cool to talk to also....if you can understand him.
As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.[/QUOTE]
Your only a few hours drive from Ocean,if you get a chance,take the trip and drive down and pay him a visit.He has since moved to a new and bigger shop,this new place has all the goodies inside.It's well worth the trip to see all the crazy NA cars,Ocean is cool to talk to also....if you can understand him.
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09-17-2010, 03:39 PM
#60
Interesting because I think it is the extra oil consumption that has been causing my issues on the track and not so much for street use. Extra oil in the combustion chamber under full load is bad for many reasons.
The Wiseco pistons have huge passages between the underside of the piston and the oil control rings compared to stock as the Stock pistons have none. Also the bottom side of the new Wiseco pistons don’t seem to be shaped where squirting oil up on them would hit areas I would think would be close proximity to the heat sources on the top side thus Probably ineffective at sucking much extra heat out anyway.
Bob
The Wiseco pistons have huge passages between the underside of the piston and the oil control rings compared to stock as the Stock pistons have none. Also the bottom side of the new Wiseco pistons don’t seem to be shaped where squirting oil up on them would hit areas I would think would be close proximity to the heat sources on the top side thus Probably ineffective at sucking much extra heat out anyway.
Bob
I just got another response after emailing back. He said if the pistons allow the squirters to be installed without any modification then it's up to me. He said either way it will be fine... but he said if you have pistons that require bending the squirters to just leave them out as he has seen them fail before after bending them.
PS... Neil you suck at quoting... lol :P
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