Amsoil Air filter pressure drop tested-Need better air filter - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 12-30-2015, 12:52 PM   #61
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on a 2554, likely not
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:52 PM   #62
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One thing I would add to testing methods -- and the reason why we would prefer dyno or drag strip data . . . :

Getting accurate static pressure measurements can be notoriously difficult, especially on an intake tract in tight quarters with lots of bends. Ideally, you'd like to put the take-off port in the middle of a significant length of straight pipe to eliminate the effect of turns that can alter the pressure reading. Remember that airplanes fly because air is forced to turn resulting in localized higher and lower pressures. Not sure if this is affecting you or not.

Also, K&N recommended filter areas here: https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...e3/#post706313.
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:52 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I mean look at this plot




and the filter it was made with


Pat's is like twice that size. And he's not even coming close to making that kind of power
My setup is breathing a ton of air, enough that I'm at 93% duty cycle with ID 1000's setup to flow 1,200cc/min at my fuel pressure. My SC is sucking down over 900 CFM if the filter would let it. The SC is pulling down a lot of power off the crankshaft to drive it, well over 100hp just to the SC alone.

AKA, my setup sucks in more air and fuel than that 500hp turbo car. But you don't realize that because your not familiar with high power SC cars, only turbo cars.

A filter restriction would be less important on a turbo car than a SC car from a power perspective since SC's are fixed RPMs by a pulley vs a turbo has a wastegate that can adjust to hit a target boost PSI.

I find it hard to believe that nobody understands this.
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:57 PM   #64
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Power is the only change anyone cares about. Anyone can measure differences in random variables, but it doesn't mean it's significant to real world applications.

Get it on the dyno. Do 3 base pulls, swap filters, then do 3 more. That'll give you actual data.

I'm not going to lie, your numbers are not insignificant differences, but as others have said above, plenty of people have ran much smaller filters with much more dynoed power, so something's up with your setup, or your measuring methods.

Give it a try, you'll stop wasting everyone's time on these conspiracy theories.



My work bought this as a mistake for a customers car and all laughed at it's size. We'll be dyno'ing the changes between this tiny thing and a slightly bigger one on a NA8 with a GT2554 soon. I'm theorizing little to no difference.
If you don't care or understand my testing, that's fine. I don't require you to. I'm not wasting 100 dollars on 6 dyno pulls to tell me that an air filter that flows more air will make more power.

Random variables (AFR, boost, and pressure drop just after the air filter all dataloged at the same time)?
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:59 PM   #65
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It's pretty simple math:

let's say you are at 350 and your sc eats 100. That's 450. Even if it's eating 150 which I doubt, you're still at 500.

That guy is still making more power and torque than you. What is the whole world missing that you are so smart to know? Even the other sc guys are not agreeing with you, and they made more power than you.

TNTuba made way more power than you and knows way more than all of us about PD blowers, and even he's not agreeing with you.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:08 PM   #66
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It's pretty simple math:

let's say you are at 350 and your sc eats 100. That's 450. Even if it's eating 150 which I doubt, you're still at 500.

That guy is still making more power and torque than you. What is the whole world missing that you are so smart to know? Even the other sc guys are not agreeing with you, and they made more power than you.

TNTuba made way more power than you and knows way more than all of us about PD blowers, and even he's not agreeing with you.
Lol. I make a thread about actual data I measured and people freak out about it. Eric's car trapped 3 or 5 mph faster than mine in the 1/8 mile, that's not "way more power" given how much heavier my car is than his. But maybe that's not obvious. And what is he not agreeing with? He RECOMMENDED the Spectre air filter, I tested it, and it was the least restrictive of the 3 I tested.

What you and everyone seem to be missing is that I measured a significant pressure drop on my setup that is holding back my peak power. None of you have done the testing I have done (not on your car nor mine), but you all know more about this topic and my setup than I do? My testing says there is a significant pressure drop at high flow rates (900+ CFM). If you read my last post, I even explained why it's more important on a SC setup than a turbo setup.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:13 PM   #67
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Watch this.

ID1000, at regular rail pressure max out at 400whp on E85 on a turbo setup.

Add 20%, thats 480whp.

Are we done yet?
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:13 PM   #68
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Assuming a standard BSFC for a supercharged engine, you've got enough fuel for 750 crank horsepower. Go crazy with it and you're still injecting enough for well over 500 crank horsepower.

So, why's your **** so terrible?

Nevermind, forgot e85.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
One thing I would add to testing methods -- and the reason why we would prefer dyno or drag strip data . . . :

Getting accurate static pressure measurements can be notoriously difficult, especially on an intake tract in tight quarters with lots of bends. Ideally, you'd like to put the take-off port in the middle of a significant length of straight pipe to eliminate the effect of turns that can alter the pressure reading. Remember that airplanes fly because air is forced to turn resulting in localized higher and lower pressures. Not sure if this is affecting you or not.

Also, K&N recommended filter areas here: https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...e3/#post706313.
Good info. I don't know if that's affecting it or not. I'm going to measure the pressure in the bumper cover next as suggested here. I doubt that's the problem but would be awesome if it was! I agree that dyno or drag strip data would be nice but I don't have it.

I'll have to find my sheet, but I believe the Amsoil filter was around 170 square inches IIRC. The other two are both less than that.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Watch this.

ID1000, at regular rail pressure max out at 400whp on E85 on a turbo setup.

Add 20%, thats 480whp.

Are we done yet?
Then minus 100-130whp for the SC drag and that would be 350-380whp. Sounds about right to me.

But what does that have to do with my air filter testing? I do appreciate the people here that posted good info regarding things to test or how to calculate what air filters work. But all the back and fourth that has nothing to do with this is pretty useless.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Lol. I make a thread about actual data I measured and people freak out about it. Eric's car trapped 3 or 5 mph faster than mine in the 1/8 mile, that's not "way more power" given how much heavier my car is than his. But maybe that's not obvious. And what is he not agreeing with? He RECOMMENDED the Spectre air filter, I tested it, and it was the least restrictive of the 3 I tested.

What you and everyone seem to be missing is that I measured a significant pressure drop on my setup that is holding back my peak power. None of you have done the testing I have done (not on your car nor mine), but you all know more about this topic and my setup than I do? My testing says there is a significant pressure drop at high flow rates (900+ CFM). If you read my last post, I even explained why it's more important on a SC setup than a turbo setup.

Did you have a giant duel element wing set to provide maximum down force at 70mph on your test?

And keep in mind that 1/8th mile pass was on stock cams, less boost, MS1 ecu 600cc crappy injectors and a 1.2L blower. I was around 283hp when I made that pass. I also had a large front splitter and unaerodynamic 275mm wide tires on the front. You are comparing apples to bowling *****.

I'm not saying I think you are wasting your time trying to find a good air filter. But I think you are spending a lot of time, energy and money chasing things that don't net you big gains.

I still think you are running too much boost. That could be helped with cam timing as well as a real header. Anything over @24PSI and I contend you are making more heat and parasitic loss than you are power.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:19 PM   #72
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I still think you need to find a tuner you trust, take a ton of fuel and several pulleys and adjustable cam gears and get the most out of your setup as it sits.

While you are on the dyno you will be able to, with the help of a competent tuner , identify where your bottle necks are and develop a plan to fix them.

I applaud your effort and I think you have made a ton of progress and there is A LOT to be said for doing it all on your own BUT sometimes in an effort to save money you end up costing yourself money and time.

It's like when I wanted to remodel my house. Am I smart enough to hang sheetrock....sure....am I ever going to be as good at it as the guys that do it for a living....hell no.

My car is well tuned and my sheetrock is straight with no gaps
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:38 PM   #73
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:00 PM   #74
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Totally off topic....but now I have more "cats" than Leafy....I feel like I have arrived.
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:07 PM   #75
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Totally off topic....but now I have more "cats" than Leafy....I feel like I have arrived.
To be fair, leafy loses a lot more cats than your average poster
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:15 PM   #76
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He's so much better lately though. Leafy 1.0 was really annoying. Leafy 2.0 is a cool dude
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:17 PM   #77
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He's so much better lately though. Leafy 1.0 was really annoying. Leafy 2.0 is a cool dude
You're just saying that so he'll give you a ride in his MZR swap
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:18 PM   #78
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I've met Leafy in person like 4 or 5 times.

Hell, I let him drive my car at a race this last summer (It was really fun to watch him try to figure out what to do with the 15 extra MPH of corner entry speed)

I would consider him a stand up guy. He's totally different in person than he is on the internet and I would consider him a real friend.

That being said, it's still fun to bust his *****.
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:18 PM   #79
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Also, every single test is moot until you somehow get a baseline without a filter. The pipe opening alone could be causing 20kpa of vacuum.
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Old 12-30-2015, 05:38 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTUBA View Post
Did you have a giant duel element wing set to provide maximum down force at 70mph on your test?

And keep in mind that 1/8th mile pass was on stock cams, less boost, MS1 ecu 600cc crappy injectors and a 1.2L blower. I was around 283hp when I made that pass. I also had a large front splitter and unaerodynamic 275mm wide tires on the front. You are comparing apples to bowling *****.

I'm not saying I think you are wasting your time trying to find a good air filter. But I think you are spending a lot of time, energy and money chasing things that don't net you big gains.

I still think you are running too much boost. That could be helped with cam timing as well as a real header. Anything over @24PSI and I contend you are making more heat and parasitic loss than you are power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTUBA View Post
I still think you need to find a tuner you trust, take a ton of fuel and several pulleys and adjustable cam gears and get the most out of your setup as it sits.

While you are on the dyno you will be able to, with the help of a competent tuner , identify where your bottle necks are and develop a plan to fix them.

I applaud your effort and I think you have made a ton of progress and there is A LOT to be said for doing it all on your own BUT sometimes in an effort to save money you end up costing yourself money and time.

It's like when I wanted to remodel my house. Am I smart enough to hang sheetrock....sure....am I ever going to be as good at it as the guys that do it for a living....hell no.

My car is well tuned and my sheetrock is straight with no gaps
You and others said before, there was something wrong with my setup. I've found a few things since then and made it a lot better with yours and others advice. You and I both know that a header and cams would both drop the boost, and up the power. You personally know how much that helps because you've done it.

I 100% plan to build a new header this winter.

I've talked to Kelford and they won't make a VVT cam for me, only a 99-00 cam for the intake. They also said they were out of blanks until sometime in early 2016. I need to keep looking I suppose and find someone who will make cams that will work on my VVT head.

I can't say if it would make more power at 24 PSI vs 28, but I know that with the two pulleys I have, one gives me 22 PSI @ 8,200, one gives me 28 PSI @ 7,000. Car traps lower ET and higher MPH with the 28 PSI pulley.

I also agree that a pro tuner could tune the car and make more power. Probably a lot more to be honest.

You built your car to race competitively and win on a national level. You need the best tuner, the best engine builder, the best wheels and tires, the best everything to win on that level.

I'm building a car to learn how to build a fast and reliable car myself. I'd rather pay more and go to some classes and learn how to tune it vs pay someone to do it every time I need it tuned. I'm perfectly ok with my car being slower than the fastest race cars, it's to be expected. I want mine to be daily driver reliable and that means it can't be 100% race car too.

Aidian, I'm going to do the air pressure in the bumper test, and then try to install another pipe that's routed somewhere away from the front tire and test it with no air filter as you say. Just to get a baseline no-filter test as you say. Still I'm worried but hopefully I can get the pipe somewhere away from the tire enough to test it safely. I too would like to see the difference that makes.
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