Mazdaspeed Miata or Aftermarket Turbo Miata?
08-06-2009, 05:38 PM
#41
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Its cute how many of you actually secretly like the MSM as a normal, factory-turbo car :3 it ain't so bad after all, eh?
Sure its no STI/Evolution/Corvette/etcetc but its relatively inexpensive for the goodies you get.
However, I still stick with the assertion that SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING can build a better turbo miata than the MSM, given the proper funding (you guys know who you are).
Also: I lol`d at stephanie
Sure its no STI/Evolution/Corvette/etcetc but its relatively inexpensive for the goodies you get.
However, I still stick with the assertion that SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING can build a better turbo miata than the MSM, given the proper funding (you guys know who you are).
Also: I lol`d at stephanie
If you look at the factory MSM turbo manifold, the casting is sorta shitty...
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08-07-2009, 12:42 AM
#43
Why in the world wouldn't they have a sticky at Mazdaspeed for a power upgrade path. Intercooler, exhaust, intake, downpipe, turbo, ecu, etc. Here's what gets you 200hp safely, here's 250. It has to be beaten to death there with clear and obvious paths to do it. They must love answering the same questions constantly like members here do!
No biggie though, just like you guys say here, all they gotta do is use the search function, and its there. Flyin miata also has a list on their site for MSM parts and suggested upgrade lineage, and even some dyno stuff. Unlike here, the MSM forum is heavily biased towards FM vs others, just because of the way everything seems to fit together so nicely.
Anyway, all not to mention, for about $1200 I'm on an FM full intake, Downpipe, Blousch turbo, SpeedHut digital boost gauge, Fm frame rails, and a few other bits... Putting me over 200whp, its a nice package. Used parts, obviously. Don't care. Still makes power.
I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate.... Hate. The 6-speed, shot-peen-in-my-*** transmission, though. I'd ditch it for the 5. (any takers on a trade :-))
Oh, just wanted to mention that we have a 4.10 rear end, quickly, and I assume a shot-peened gearset is stronger, but who cares when it sucks.
As well, aside from the Xede, Hydra, or a custom MS, not seen success with other ecu options as far as watching others.
I'll put my vote in for a 99' SE or 02' SE over the MSM most any day, and turbo it. Don't forget Absurdlow's stuff, which is very nice as well
But, yea, most of us ditch the stock suspension, ditch the 17.4lbs (or 18.2 on 05') boat anchor wheels, Some love the Bose (not bosch???) system, most don't, and some ditch that, many ditch parts if not the whole turbo system, a few people do not like the 6-speed for inconsistencies as well (including FM).
Anyway, I still enjoy my car. It also works. Every day. Even in the winter. Go figure.
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08-07-2009, 02:21 PM
#45
If 3.63 gears would make it stop sucking *** at shifting, I would Stephanie, but I have one of the worst 6's I've ever felt. I'm guessing its just tolerances in the box are out of whack, but I'm much too strapped for time to take the bloody bugger apart and spec everything out.
I've been in about 4-5 other MSM/SE 6 gang cars, and mine has some of the worst notchiness I've felt. I can get to the gear I want no problem, but it doesn't give you that nice warm fuzzy feeling.
Oh, 'band-aids' for the trans include oil changes (royal purple, redline, now Ford Ful synth.) bushing changes, new boots, etc...
I've been in about 4-5 other MSM/SE 6 gang cars, and mine has some of the worst notchiness I've felt. I can get to the gear I want no problem, but it doesn't give you that nice warm fuzzy feeling.
Oh, 'band-aids' for the trans include oil changes (royal purple, redline, now Ford Ful synth.) bushing changes, new boots, etc...
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08-07-2009, 02:55 PM
#46
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mazdacomp sucks:
The ring and pinion gear mesh is all wrong as it sits in my shop. No spacers or shims were included with the gears to make sure the alignment was right, so I had to assume the set was meant to be built without shims (this is not abnormal). When I assembled the differential, there were issues with the clearances associated with pinion shaft length, which was solved using an additional spacer (that does not affect gear mesh). The Pinion was too long to obtain proper bearing preload when built as is was before disassembly (read: slack and play in the pinion bearings). Once re-assembled with the new spacer, the gear mesh was all wrong. Proper gear backlash is not attainable while retaining a smooth-spinning gear mesh. Once the gear teeth are brought close to (but still outside of) tolerance, the gears begin to grind. The corners of the pinion teeth are drgging along the faces of the ring teeth. As each gear tooth engages/disengages, there is a notchy/grinding sensation felt and heard (hand-spinning). Surface texture of both gears appears to be fine. There is no pitting or gouging, nor are the edges of the gear teeth worn or rounded. The gear set arrived with sizing compound (for aligning gear teeth) on both gears.
The ring and pinion gear mesh is all wrong as it sits in my shop. No spacers or shims were included with the gears to make sure the alignment was right, so I had to assume the set was meant to be built without shims (this is not abnormal). When I assembled the differential, there were issues with the clearances associated with pinion shaft length, which was solved using an additional spacer (that does not affect gear mesh). The Pinion was too long to obtain proper bearing preload when built as is was before disassembly (read: slack and play in the pinion bearings). Once re-assembled with the new spacer, the gear mesh was all wrong. Proper gear backlash is not attainable while retaining a smooth-spinning gear mesh. Once the gear teeth are brought close to (but still outside of) tolerance, the gears begin to grind. The corners of the pinion teeth are drgging along the faces of the ring teeth. As each gear tooth engages/disengages, there is a notchy/grinding sensation felt and heard (hand-spinning). Surface texture of both gears appears to be fine. There is no pitting or gouging, nor are the edges of the gear teeth worn or rounded. The gear set arrived with sizing compound (for aligning gear teeth) on both gears.
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08-07-2009, 08:20 PM
#50
Also, on my MSM, I put down 184rwhp with nothing but a cheap $189 AEM intake and a MBC I had sitting on the shelf already. With my current setup, all mods I got cheap, mostly used, I'm at 210RWHP. I have 46K on my odo and my turbo hasn't craped out or shown any signs of failing.
IMO, if you want a NB miata, in the end, either way you go you will have about the same money invested. I've modded a lot of cars, and never has my guesstimated budget come out like I expected. you almost always end up spending more than you planned. I think the main difference:
If you like to tinker vs get down and dirty with some serious wrenching, get a MSM, if you like to get down and dirty, go with the NB and build your own turbo.
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08-07-2009, 11:50 PM
#51
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Shoot your at 210 horsepower. I say if that **** never craps out be happy and know you didn't spend 3,000 dollars replacing the entire turbo system because 99% of all MSM turbo prematurely fail 
I like whoever it was who said 100 out of like 6000 MSM have bad turbos, cause that's probably the truth. I know a man in florence that has a silver one 89,000 miles, oil changed every 3,000 miles, no prob at all... Hell how many ******* 90-91's had short nose cranks (Not really an issue as long as proper installation of the woodruff key and sufficient torque and threadlocker is applied to the crankshaft nut) and how many 99's had the **** no.4 thrust bearing issue?
If the turbo was that popular and prone to failure, I would think C&D, Motortrend, some automotive magazine producer would have caught on to it and made mention of it for real... Yet the only people I find that really talk it down are business that offer alternative setups, good well engineered setups don't get me wrong on that, but quiet expensive...
You know if I were to change the turbo, I wonder how hard it would be just to sale my MSM manifold, turbo, and outlet and go with a BEGI Manifold, GT2560, Seperated Gases Stainless Steel down pipe, and simply utilize my existing oil lines, drain lines, water lines, MSM charge pipes and intercooler. (And no I use my own custom oil feed/drain and water lines. We probably just talking using a two pieces to adapt the intake to the compressor inlet, and another piece to connect the compressor oulet to the existing MSM charge pipes...
Now that would be hot, nice, cheap, and could be had for 1,250-1,500 dollars in used condition
And considering using an AEM MSM Intake and a Bell Engineering throttle body inlet hose, and a forge motorsports recirculating by pass valve, you would have a pretty damn good turbo assembly. And yeah, like I said... Sell the MSM manifold, IHI turbo, and outlet, and heatshields all that ****... Make about 300-400 dollars on that.
I like whoever it was who said 100 out of like 6000 MSM have bad turbos, cause that's probably the truth. I know a man in florence that has a silver one 89,000 miles, oil changed every 3,000 miles, no prob at all... Hell how many ******* 90-91's had short nose cranks (Not really an issue as long as proper installation of the woodruff key and sufficient torque and threadlocker is applied to the crankshaft nut) and how many 99's had the **** no.4 thrust bearing issue?
If the turbo was that popular and prone to failure, I would think C&D, Motortrend, some automotive magazine producer would have caught on to it and made mention of it for real... Yet the only people I find that really talk it down are business that offer alternative setups, good well engineered setups don't get me wrong on that, but quiet expensive...
You know if I were to change the turbo, I wonder how hard it would be just to sale my MSM manifold, turbo, and outlet and go with a BEGI Manifold, GT2560, Seperated Gases Stainless Steel down pipe, and simply utilize my existing oil lines, drain lines, water lines, MSM charge pipes and intercooler. (And no I use my own custom oil feed/drain and water lines. We probably just talking using a two pieces to adapt the intake to the compressor inlet, and another piece to connect the compressor oulet to the existing MSM charge pipes...
Now that would be hot, nice, cheap, and could be had for 1,250-1,500 dollars in used condition
And considering using an AEM MSM Intake and a Bell Engineering throttle body inlet hose, and a forge motorsports recirculating by pass valve, you would have a pretty damn good turbo assembly. And yeah, like I said... Sell the MSM manifold, IHI turbo, and outlet, and heatshields all that ****... Make about 300-400 dollars on that.
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08-07-2009, 11:57 PM
#52
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You know I may be on to something. If any of you guys got an Mazdaspeed Miata, you just try replacing the manifold, turbo, and outlet with BEGI's Shangai Series Turbocharger, manifold, and downpipe. Get you that good begi throttle body intake pipe, recirculating valve, and an AEM intake, and retrofit your existing turbo lines and charge pipes to work with the Chinacharger. It may take nothing but a reclocking of the compressor wheel and you'll have one nice setup. Save you some money cause you could utilize your existing MSM 28x7.5x 2.5 ebay intercooler and charge pipes, which I don't really find to be bad at all...
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08-08-2009, 12:43 AM
#54
Shoot your at 210 horsepower. I say if that **** never craps out be happy and know you didn't spend 3,000 dollars replacing the entire turbo system because 99% of all MSM turbo prematurely fail
I like whoever it was who said 100 out of like 6000 MSM have bad turbos, cause that's probably the truth. I know a man in florence that has a silver one 89,000 miles, oil changed every 3,000 miles, no prob at all... Hell how many ******* 90-91's had short nose cranks (Not really an issue as long as proper installation of the woodruff key and sufficient torque and threadlocker is applied to the crankshaft nut) and how many 99's had the **** no.4 thrust bearing issue?
If the turbo was that popular and prone to failure, I would think C&D, Motortrend, some automotive magazine producer would have caught on to it and made mention of it for real... Yet the only people I find that really talk it down are business that offer alternative setups, good well engineered setups don't get me wrong on that, but quiet expensive...
You know if I were to change the turbo, I wonder how hard it would be just to sale my MSM manifold, turbo, and outlet and go with a BEGI Manifold, GT2560, Seperated Gases Stainless Steel down pipe, and simply utilize my existing oil lines, drain lines, water lines, MSM charge pipes and intercooler. (And no I use my own custom oil feed/drain and water lines. We probably just talking using a two pieces to adapt the intake to the compressor inlet, and another piece to connect the compressor oulet to the existing MSM charge pipes...
Now that would be hot, nice, cheap, and could be had for 1,250-1,500 dollars in used condition And considering using an AEM MSM Intake and a Bell Engineering throttle body inlet hose, and a forge motorsports recirculating by pass valve, you would have a pretty damn good turbo assembly. And yeah, like I said... Sell the MSM manifold, IHI turbo, and outlet, and heatshields all that ****... Make about 300-400 dollars on that.
I like whoever it was who said 100 out of like 6000 MSM have bad turbos, cause that's probably the truth. I know a man in florence that has a silver one 89,000 miles, oil changed every 3,000 miles, no prob at all... Hell how many ******* 90-91's had short nose cranks (Not really an issue as long as proper installation of the woodruff key and sufficient torque and threadlocker is applied to the crankshaft nut) and how many 99's had the **** no.4 thrust bearing issue?
If the turbo was that popular and prone to failure, I would think C&D, Motortrend, some automotive magazine producer would have caught on to it and made mention of it for real... Yet the only people I find that really talk it down are business that offer alternative setups, good well engineered setups don't get me wrong on that, but quiet expensive...
You know if I were to change the turbo, I wonder how hard it would be just to sale my MSM manifold, turbo, and outlet and go with a BEGI Manifold, GT2560, Seperated Gases Stainless Steel down pipe, and simply utilize my existing oil lines, drain lines, water lines, MSM charge pipes and intercooler. (And no I use my own custom oil feed/drain and water lines. We probably just talking using a two pieces to adapt the intake to the compressor inlet, and another piece to connect the compressor oulet to the existing MSM charge pipes...
Now that would be hot, nice, cheap, and could be had for 1,250-1,500 dollars in used condition
And considering using an AEM MSM Intake and a Bell Engineering throttle body inlet hose, and a forge motorsports recirculating by pass valve, you would have a pretty damn good turbo assembly. And yeah, like I said... Sell the MSM manifold, IHI turbo, and outlet, and heatshields all that ****... Make about 300-400 dollars on that.
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08-08-2009, 01:13 AM
#55
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How about someone make a manifold that has a T2 flange that directly replaces the MSM manifold and a downpipe that mates up to the MSM downpipe (after that cast POS piece that bolts to the turbo...where the FM downpipe bolts to) that fits a good Garrett turbo?
Oh wait...
Oh wait...
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08-08-2009, 03:05 AM
#56
How about someone make a manifold that has a T2 flange that directly replaces the MSM manifold and a downpipe that mates up to the MSM downpipe (after that cast POS piece that bolts to the turbo...where the FM downpipe bolts to) that fits a good Garrett turbo?
Oh wait...
Oh wait...
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08-08-2009, 11:18 AM
#57
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How about someone make a manifold that has a T2 flange that directly replaces the MSM manifold and a downpipe that mates up to the MSM downpipe (after that cast POS piece that bolts to the turbo...where the FM downpipe bolts to) that fits a good Garrett turbo?
Oh wait...
Oh wait...
I do like the begi cast iron manifold, it is a work of art and haven't heard manifold cracking probs to be an issue. My setup is sorta hybrid. I am using a stock 99-05 downpipe, a 2.5 inch 99-05 FM midpipe, and a 2.5 inch enthuza dual exhaust. It bolts together perfectly. You might be like, oh wait that spool up is slow but it isn't. The diameter of that header to midpipe piece is the same as the diameter of that POS MSM cast turbo outlet and there is no catalytic converter in my 99-05 downpipe either. Spool up is amazingly fast.
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