miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something)
05-19-2016, 07:13 PM
#2525
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
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Does anyone have any objective data on how much 30-40 additional whp impacts performance? 0-60 or 50-70 times? How about subjective opinions? 200 whp seems like, for me at least, the sweet spot for a turbo NA to be pleasantly quick, so I'm curious how the ND with ~170 hp compares.
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05-19-2016, 07:45 PM
#2526
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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Keep in mind that a 200 rwhp turbo car is going to have heaps more midrange torque than a 200 rwhp naturally aspirated car. This is probably not relevant on the track, but it will make for a car that feels very different on the street.
--Ian
--Ian
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05-21-2016, 12:41 PM
#2532
Boost Pope
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Do you need a track car?
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
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05-21-2016, 12:45 PM
#2533
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Good-Win Racing is HOME of the MOST POWERFUL Normally Aspirated 2.0 ND....AGAIN!
NEW RECORD 180.5 HP at the wheels, 179 Ft/lbs of TORQUE!
That's about a 200 HP Miata in factory lingo, given that the factory quote horsepower at the motor, and about 20hp is lost getting to the wheels. All you folks who said the ND should be 200 hp....now it can be! Same exact Orange Virus Tune as used for our Shorty header. BIG credit to Mat at Orange Virus for doing such a good tune, made NO tune changes in swap from our shorty header and the tune still worked perfect. Though no tune changes in changing from our shorty I bet we could now add a bit more timing and do even better.
First we made our Shorty Max Power 4-2-1 Header currently available on our site, which is the best drop-in ND header that fits in place of the stock header, yet makes more torque than even the Mazda long tube 4-1 headers in the Global Cup cars. Then we asked the question, what if we took all the lessons and math we perfected from beating a long tube full race header with a shorty, and applied those lessons to making the ULTIMATE Long Tube Race header for ND? Behold the Ultimate in ND Header technology! Hand made merge sections join max length primaries into secondaries, careful calculation and testing of each and every piece and section to get flow and scavenge perfected.
Note that cost is going to be MUCH higher than our shorty, this is a no holds barred setup, no expense sparred in making the ULTIMATE header. It will not be double the cost of our shorty setup, but nearly! It's a ton of hand labor in this design, cannot easily be mass produced like our shorty. Made it with our braces on the car but will not take ANY complaints about it not fitting with other braces, it's a LOT OF PIPE you see here to fit and the fit is tight (those who need drop in easy fitment must look to our shorty). Those on a budget look to our shorty, those who cannot disconnect motor mounts and jack the motor to drop in this BEAST need to look to our shorty!
We hit that 180 result earlier this week but I left the dyno before getting it printed up, and returned to the dyno today to seek to back up the number with another of our mufflers bolted up. Easily backed up our runs from the other day, amazing consistency. Different muffler on the car today, our new twin tip Super Street instead of the single tip Super Street we had on the car earlier in the week. Hit 180.5 earlier in the week, 180.4 today is what I printed though best today was 180.8, that's solid backup and consistency! Here is today overlaid with stock best baseline of this same ND which was 139hp on this same dyno. We are indeed up OVER 40 hp from stock, and as you can see on the graph there are various points where torque gain is over 40 Ft/lbs. Thus, full system gets customers up over 40HP and over 40 Ft/lbs! Notice it is NOT peaky gains, look at the torque line which is up over 30 Ft/lbs EVERYWHERE!
Longtube not on our site yet, be on site for prepay soon...and my hope is to work hard and get a few out the door in July....will see.
NEW RECORD 180.5 HP at the wheels, 179 Ft/lbs of TORQUE!
That's about a 200 HP Miata in factory lingo, given that the factory quote horsepower at the motor, and about 20hp is lost getting to the wheels. All you folks who said the ND should be 200 hp....now it can be! Same exact Orange Virus Tune as used for our Shorty header. BIG credit to Mat at Orange Virus for doing such a good tune, made NO tune changes in swap from our shorty header and the tune still worked perfect. Though no tune changes in changing from our shorty I bet we could now add a bit more timing and do even better.
First we made our Shorty Max Power 4-2-1 Header currently available on our site, which is the best drop-in ND header that fits in place of the stock header, yet makes more torque than even the Mazda long tube 4-1 headers in the Global Cup cars. Then we asked the question, what if we took all the lessons and math we perfected from beating a long tube full race header with a shorty, and applied those lessons to making the ULTIMATE Long Tube Race header for ND? Behold the Ultimate in ND Header technology! Hand made merge sections join max length primaries into secondaries, careful calculation and testing of each and every piece and section to get flow and scavenge perfected.
Note that cost is going to be MUCH higher than our shorty, this is a no holds barred setup, no expense sparred in making the ULTIMATE header. It will not be double the cost of our shorty setup, but nearly! It's a ton of hand labor in this design, cannot easily be mass produced like our shorty. Made it with our braces on the car but will not take ANY complaints about it not fitting with other braces, it's a LOT OF PIPE you see here to fit and the fit is tight (those who need drop in easy fitment must look to our shorty). Those on a budget look to our shorty, those who cannot disconnect motor mounts and jack the motor to drop in this BEAST need to look to our shorty!
We hit that 180 result earlier this week but I left the dyno before getting it printed up, and returned to the dyno today to seek to back up the number with another of our mufflers bolted up. Easily backed up our runs from the other day, amazing consistency. Different muffler on the car today, our new twin tip Super Street instead of the single tip Super Street we had on the car earlier in the week. Hit 180.5 earlier in the week, 180.4 today is what I printed though best today was 180.8, that's solid backup and consistency! Here is today overlaid with stock best baseline of this same ND which was 139hp on this same dyno. We are indeed up OVER 40 hp from stock, and as you can see on the graph there are various points where torque gain is over 40 Ft/lbs. Thus, full system gets customers up over 40HP and over 40 Ft/lbs! Notice it is NOT peaky gains, look at the torque line which is up over 30 Ft/lbs EVERYWHERE!
Longtube not on our site yet, be on site for prepay soon...and my hope is to work hard and get a few out the door in July....will see.
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05-21-2016, 01:02 PM
#2534
Do you need a track car?
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
The 01 is a BRG SE, but the paint has gone to crap, so it isn't so special anymore. It only has 71k on it, though.
I have had 2 NC's now and they are light years better as DD's. The engines actually have torque and turning on the AC doesn't murder the engine power at all.
My TDI Jetta should be getting sold back to VW here pretty soon, so if I get rid of that payment, the NC payment AND sell the 01 and all the parts, I could pay for a huge chunk of the ND up front, but then it would be my only car. I have done a few track days, but I wanted to get into it more seriously, hence the track car comment. I live 5 hours from the nearest track, though. I also drive an average of 2k+ miles a month and I work at a powerplant whose cooling tower ruins the paint of any car I take there, so it makes me squeamish to buy a brand-new car and put so many miles on it. I would have to clean it basically every freaking day to keep the paint from being ruined.
The ND does basically match the mpg I get in the Jetta coming to work right now, though. Perhaps I should simplify my life and go back to one car, instead of 3.
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05-21-2016, 01:18 PM
#2536
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Do you need a track car?
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
All else being equal, any solution which involves getting rid of an NC and gaining an ND sounds like a good one to me. Although if it were my choice, unless there's something seriously wrong with the '01, I'd probably sell the NC and use the money to make the NB into a really nice DD and maybe pick up a '94-'97 to use as a track car if I felt I really needed one.
No one really "needs" a track car unless they are a pro driver or something, so it is just for fun.
The 01 is a BRG SE, but the paint has gone to crap, so it isn't so special anymore. It only has 71k on it, though.
I have had 2 NC's now and they are light years better as DD's. The engines actually have torque and turning on the AC doesn't murder the engine power at all.
My TDI Jetta should be getting sold back to VW here pretty soon, so if I get rid of that payment, the NC payment AND sell the 01 and all the parts, I could pay for a huge chunk of the ND up front, but then it would be my only car. I have done a few track days, but I wanted to get into it more seriously, hence the track car comment. I live 5 hours from the nearest track, though. I also drive an average of 2k+ miles a month and I work at a powerplant whose cooling tower ruins the paint of any car I take there, so it makes me squeamish to buy a brand-new car and put so many miles on it. I would have to clean it basically every freaking day to keep the paint from being ruined.
The ND does basically match the mpg I get in the Jetta coming to work right now, though. Perhaps I should simplify my life and go back to one car, instead of 3.
The 01 is a BRG SE, but the paint has gone to crap, so it isn't so special anymore. It only has 71k on it, though.
I have had 2 NC's now and they are light years better as DD's. The engines actually have torque and turning on the AC doesn't murder the engine power at all.
My TDI Jetta should be getting sold back to VW here pretty soon, so if I get rid of that payment, the NC payment AND sell the 01 and all the parts, I could pay for a huge chunk of the ND up front, but then it would be my only car. I have done a few track days, but I wanted to get into it more seriously, hence the track car comment. I live 5 hours from the nearest track, though. I also drive an average of 2k+ miles a month and I work at a powerplant whose cooling tower ruins the paint of any car I take there, so it makes me squeamish to buy a brand-new car and put so many miles on it. I would have to clean it basically every freaking day to keep the paint from being ruined.
The ND does basically match the mpg I get in the Jetta coming to work right now, though. Perhaps I should simplify my life and go back to one car, instead of 3.
Keep something like the Jetta for a DD, keep the NB as track car. That's my suggestion.
Or if you really want a Miata for a daily, sell the Jetta and NC, buy an ND, and keep tracking the NB.
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05-21-2016, 01:20 PM
#2537
Boost Pope
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I just never liked the feel of the NC. I don't mean the road manner or the feel of how it handles, I mean the feel of sitting in the car and driving it.
The NB, like the NA, feels like a glove. You don't get into it, you put it on and it becomes an extension of you.
By comparison, sitting in the NC feels like sitting in a bathtub. It feels big and chunky. The door sills come up too high, the dashboard is too large and too high, the controls feel poorly placed. It's like sitting in a Corvette. It conveys the sensation of something big and serious.
It's a purely personal, aesthetic decision, I just don't like the way the NC fits the driver as compared to the earlier cars. I haven't yet driven an ND, so I can't speak intelligently to it, but I'd never pick an NC over an NB as my DD.
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05-21-2016, 01:34 PM
#2539
I recognize your distaste for the NC, but as stated, the NC really is a FAR superior DD (vs. the NB). That being said, the ND is nearly as much better than the NC. It's such a leap forward for DD duty.
I think it's poor judgment to track a $30k car, particularly if it's financed. It's downright stupid if that's also your only car.
Keep something like the Jetta for a DD, keep the NB as track car. That's my suggestion.
Or if you really want a Miata for a daily, sell the Jetta and NC, buy an ND, and keep tracking the NB.
I think it's poor judgment to track a $30k car, particularly if it's financed. It's downright stupid if that's also your only car.
Keep something like the Jetta for a DD, keep the NB as track car. That's my suggestion.
Or if you really want a Miata for a daily, sell the Jetta and NC, buy an ND, and keep tracking the NB.
The Jetta really is a great car, but it just kills me driving it. I have had nothing but Miatas since 2008 and I miss not being in a convertible basically everytime I drive it. If this whole buy-back crap that is happening ends up being a financial positive for me, it is definitely gone.
No doubt, the engines are better. And I'm sure that they're faster around the track as well.
I just never liked the feel of the NC. I don't mean the road manner or the feel of how it handles, I mean the feel of sitting in the car and driving it.
The NB, like the NA, feels like a glove. You don't get into it, you put it on and it becomes an extension of you.
By comparison, sitting in the NC feels like sitting in a bathtub. It feels big and chunky. The door sills come up too high, the dashboard is too large and too high, the controls feel poorly placed. It's like sitting in a Corvette. It conveys the sensation of something big and serious.
It's a purely personal, aesthetic decision, I just don't like the way the NC fits the driver as compared to the earlier cars. I haven't yet driven an ND, so I can't speak intelligently to it, but I'd never pick an NC over an NB as my DD.
I just never liked the feel of the NC. I don't mean the road manner or the feel of how it handles, I mean the feel of sitting in the car and driving it.
The NB, like the NA, feels like a glove. You don't get into it, you put it on and it becomes an extension of you.
By comparison, sitting in the NC feels like sitting in a bathtub. It feels big and chunky. The door sills come up too high, the dashboard is too large and too high, the controls feel poorly placed. It's like sitting in a Corvette. It conveys the sensation of something big and serious.
It's a purely personal, aesthetic decision, I just don't like the way the NC fits the driver as compared to the earlier cars. I haven't yet driven an ND, so I can't speak intelligently to it, but I'd never pick an NC over an NB as my DD.
Last edited by Chilicharger665; 05-21-2016 at 03:30 PM.
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05-21-2016, 01:44 PM
#2540
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I see. If you straight up prefer driving a convertible over those distances, then I vote you sell the NC and sellback the Jetta, then buy an ND to daily and track the '01.
And buy a membership plan for the local car wash.
And buy a membership plan for the local car wash.
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