What did I break? <Flame suit on> - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-17-2015, 10:09 AM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default What did I break? <Flame suit on>

Driving home from work yesterday, I began to hear lifter tick that suddenly progressed into lifter CLACK. Very loud lifter clack. Driveability remained in tact, so I nursed her home on the back roads very slowly.

Drained the oil, no metal in it but I wasn't expecting any because the noise seemed to be in the head.

Pulled the valve cover and saw no apparent damage, but found this;






I have no idea where that bolt came from. It doesn't match any other bolt in the head, and I haven't had the engine open for several months. I can find no apparent damage to the cams or lifters, but it sounds bad. Like a collapsed lifter.

Any ideas as to what is actually broken?
Attached Thumbnails
What did I break? &lt;Flame suit on&gt;-20150416_210303_zpssjfkm6at.jpg   What did I break? &lt;Flame suit on&gt;-20150416_213451_zpsxgydyuyu.jpg  
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:03 AM   #2
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,998
Total Cats: 1,465
Default

Looks like a timing cover bolt?
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:32 AM   #3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

It's a bit too big for that, but either way I really fucked up by letting it get in there in the first place. I'm just trying to assess the damage and find where to start looking. I guess I should start by removing the cams and checking the lifters.

Anyone know what a broken valve spring sounds like?
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:04 PM   #4
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

Is that the coil pack bolt?

I bet it's been riding around in there for months. The clack could be cam or lifter surfaces being trashed.

A broken valve spring sounds like zero compression, the valve will drop and the car probably won't run so hot.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:08 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,686
Total Cats: 559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselmiata View Post
Anyone know what a broken valve spring sounds like?
Ought to be able to see that pretty easily with the VC off. Look for a loose retainer.
rleete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:22 PM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Anderson, SC
Posts: 149
Total Cats: 6
Default

It's hard to say without something there for scale, but it looks like it could be one of the coil pack bolts, one of the CAS cap bolts, waterpump, waterpump elbow, etc. One of the many 12mm bolts.

Do you remember working on the car at some point and not being able to find one of those bolts, so you just replaced it? Well, you found it.

The bolt looks almost completely intact. I'm actually curious if the massive clack started on it's own, and you just got darn lucky finding that bolt while you're in there. Especially with no obvious cam scoring.

At least it sounds like an actual diesel Miata now?
sharkythesharkdogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:30 PM   #7
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,366
Total Cats: 1,329
Default

What's the marking on the head of the bolt (if any)?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:33 PM   #8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg View Post
At least it sounds like an actual diesel Miata now?
I love you.

I'm really hoping that the bolt didn't damage anything inside. I can't find any missing bolts on cam caps, or anywhere else for that matter. I've rotated the engine with the V/C off, and it turns pretty smoothly. All of the cam lobes look perfect, and so do the lifter surfaces. The springs seem to do what they are meant to do. Cant find any loose parts either, but this clacking was LOUD. Like, I thought it was a bent rod type of loud.

Can lifters fail internally and cause noise like that?

Edit: Sav, the bolt is a grade 6, M8 x 1.25 and approx 1.25" long.
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:39 PM   #9
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,324
Total Cats: 1,922
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselmiata View Post
I guess I should start by removing the cams and checking the lifters.
Not that I've ever personally had to deal with foreign objects rattling around inside the cam box, but I would think that if that bolt had done any sort of damage to the top of a lifter, you'd see matching evidence on the cam lobes. Eg: I'd leave the cams in and just spin them through a full rotation so as to inspect them.

That said, the second picture in your first post makes it seem that a region of the threaded portion of that bolt got hammered pretty hard. Is that really as bad as it looks?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:43 PM   #10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

It's not quite as bad as it looks, no. The threads are impacted, but not severely. I've rotated the engine by hand quite a few times, looking for any sign of physical damage and can find none whatsoever.
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:49 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,686
Total Cats: 559
Default

Put the VC back on and start it up. If no more noise, consider yourself lucky.

You got some karma to payback, too.
rleete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 01:55 PM   #12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

I'm going to give it a shot. If it works, I'm off to buy a lotto ticket.

How many people can leave a random bolt in their engine for months, and not destroy allofit?
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 02:00 PM   #13
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,324
Total Cats: 1,922
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselmiata View Post
How many people can leave a random bolt in their engine for months, and not destroy allofit?
At least two.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:04 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 524
Total Cats: 18
Default

No Miata content but still relevant:

I had a 95 Z28 that just came to a stop one day. Got it home and tore into it and had broken the cam gear which then caused bent valves and so had to pull head, replace timing components, yada yada yada....

I found a 1/2" NPT plug inside the timing gear cover. It must have somehow made its way into the valve cover, then down into the lifter valley, and finally forward into the oil return holes and into the timing gear cover area.

Where does a LT-1 Chevy engine have a 1/2" NPT plug? NOWHERE! Not under the valve cover, not in the lifter valley, and not in the timing gear area. Not even on the outside of the block. Nowhere!

How did it get in there? Sabotage is the only thing I can think of. I bought the car used so who knows its history or its previous owners enemies. Or someone who really disliked me at local autoxes threw it in there since I always kept the hood up so the engine would cool down and trusted no one would **** with it. Who knows?

Hope you are luckier than I am.
hector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 10:34 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 815
Total Cats: 47
Default

Better question is how did this bolt make it into the engine? Wouldn't have happened through a plug hole. That made me think it was one of the bolts for the cam caps but it doesn't look like it. There's no bolts missing under the cover?
Mazdaspeeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 10:47 AM   #16
AFM Crusader
iTrader: (18)
 
olderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wayne, NJ
Posts: 4,438
Total Cats: 84
Default

Somebody at work doesn't like you.
olderguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2015, 01:11 PM   #17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

Curiouser and curioser cried Alice.

Something is very wrong here. Now that the oil isn't hot, it feels congealed. Almost like it's turning into jello. Does oil go bad? I'm using Rotella T6, and it was changed just before I put it up for the winter.

I found this on the exhaust cam.





Attached Thumbnails
What did I break? &lt;Flame suit on&gt;-20150419_172708_zps4jyzija9.jpg   What did I break? &lt;Flame suit on&gt;-20150419_172814_zpsw9rtu5ys.jpg   What did I break? &lt;Flame suit on&gt;-20150419_172747_zpswrgdzdli.jpg  
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2015, 01:22 PM   #18
Senior Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lexington SC
Posts: 1,003
Total Cats: 14
Default

Thats never a good site to see , sorry!
Any idea where the shavings come from? have you pulled all the lifters?
Rallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2015, 01:28 PM   #19
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

All the lifters are out, and it looks like the two lifters right where the shavings were are pretty scored on the sides. Most of the lifters are "seized" up and the oil coming out of them feels really sludgy.

Also, you can see the "stripes" on the lifter face where the cam lobe was riding on it, those are the only lifters where it's visible.
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2015, 11:31 PM   #20
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Anderson, SC
Posts: 149
Total Cats: 6
Default

I've heard (but never personally seen) about "jellied oil" situations coming from engines that were found to have one of two things.

Either a very small coolant leak somewhere. Small enough to not cause the classic milkshake situation.

Or certain high detergent fuels/fuel additives that get into certain oils. This one's interesting for your situation, because the version I heard is that it would run fine while warm, but once the oil cooled down after being exposed to the additives is when it would "jellify".

I can't remember what was special about the oil that reacted with the fuel additives other than it was certain synthetics, from what I recall. Sorry I don't have much more, but it's kinda unusual.
sharkythesharkdogg is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 58 12-13-2017 10:04 PM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
New personal best 1/8th mile tehzack Dynos and timesheets 10 09-21-2015 07:30 PM
Foreign powered NB for NASA ST3 and/or E0 d k Race Prep 44 09-15-2015 11:59 AM
Become a race star with RaceQuip Racing Gear carid Official Miata Turbo Vendors 0 09-08-2015 08:19 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:17 PM.