"Forced" Hydra 2.7 upgrade
03-13-2013, 09:52 AM
#41
They're kind of in a **** position. The Hydra was a pretty good unit at the time when FM first started selling it. And honestly their current business strategy was par for the course back then. Heck Motec still uses the same business model, but companies like Haltech have gotten away from it. AEM still advertises their ecus as having all features and maps already unlocked, a relic from a bygone era. They cant just drop support of it and stop selling it, because it'll alienate their current customer base even more, and they might even have a contract/agreement with Hydra. And what else would they pick up? Motec is too expensive, Haltech is almost as hateful to use, TSE is already doing an AEM EMS4 setup, plenty of people already do Squirts. No one is going to buy adaptronic. All the cosworth/mclaren/bosch choices are WAY WAY WAY too much money too.
I think modern Haltechs are quite a bit better than the old E6K units or whatever that almost put the company out of business.
It's certainly be a step up from Hydra for them to carry, and could potentially get them more sales from having a full model line rather than selling only one ECU that you pay out the nose to "unlock" features that come on pretty much every other standalone on the market in the first place.
That all being said, i haven't personally messed with one hands on, though i have one in my Escort. I did a lot of research before deciding to go with one, and i really wasn't seeing anything bad being said about them.
Will i put a Haltech on my Project Miata? Probably not. I want to cut my teeth on Megasquirt, so that's the route i'm going. Is it still tempting to throw on a Sprint 500? Yeah kinda.
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03-13-2013, 10:14 AM
#42
I've only ever worked with Sport 2000 haltechs. In the grand scheme they're really not that bad. I HATE how they handle data logs, (lets just use random units and sometimes disregard the decimal place, hey dawg I heard you want your measure of distance to be decameters in your logs but miles in the tuning software). And I hate how often the software crashes out and sometimes after a crash that computer will never work with the software ever again (without a complete HD wipe). Even if you delete every thing haltech related on the damn thing. Once they're tuned though. Almost stone reliable, except when it gets the dumb and randomly changes the tune file completely.
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03-13-2013, 10:24 AM
#44
I started reading this rant of a thread, halfway through got bored and stopped.
Bottom line: ditch that stupid POS that everyone in the entire universe hates (seriously, even on other car platforms) and get one of the handful of well supported ECU's by companies that are not trying to gape you without lube at every chance they get.
I am honestly shocked that FM supports that terrible company the way they do.
Also - I've no idea how something stupid like a Hydra can be supported by your local shops, and not something much easier to work with and common like MS and AEM.
Bottom line: ditch that stupid POS that everyone in the entire universe hates (seriously, even on other car platforms) and get one of the handful of well supported ECU's by companies that are not trying to gape you without lube at every chance they get.
I am honestly shocked that FM supports that terrible company the way they do.
Also - I've no idea how something stupid like a Hydra can be supported by your local shops, and not something much easier to work with and common like MS and AEM.
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03-13-2013, 10:56 AM
#46
I think AEM is very widely supported though.
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03-13-2013, 11:06 AM
#47
I have heard about a lot of shops that won't touch MS because they have some sort of stigma that it is cheap and hacked together. I have not attempted to go to any of my local shops for tuning so I cannot verify this but I know I have read other threads that discuss this issue.
I think AEM is very widely supported though.
I think AEM is very widely supported though.
Bingo. I know of two shops within 2.5 hours of me that will touch Megasquirt, and it's VERY begrudgingly.
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03-13-2013, 11:18 AM
#50
This isn't uncommon across the entire continent...
And around here it's not even "just because it's Megasquirt and cheap."
It's because when Megasquirt first started "getting big," they were getting flooded with dumb kids want them to tune their cars equipped with megasquirt that they had installed themselves. They agree to a tuning cost per hour, drop the car off, and then the tuner ends up spending hours and hours just to get the **** to work correctly before even getting to tune. Due to an absolutely shitty install by the kid.
Then kid gets hit with 5 hours of labor plus tuning costs, can't pay, and it's a huge clusterfuck.
This was VERY common.
And unfortunately there's a LARGE percentage of shops that won't touch a Megasquirt car simply because that happened.
Yes, WE know that there's PNPs out there that won't have any of these issues. THEY don't know that, and they don't care to know that.
They see it as "Well... i've been kicked in the ***** 37 times in the last two years, maybe THIS time it'll feel GOOD."
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03-13-2013, 12:07 PM
#51
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I have to agree with the above. When I had my DIYPNP installed, every shop I called about tuning service in the SJ/SF bay had some sort of hacked *** MS horror story and then tried to sell me an AEM or some other product. The ones who were willing to touch a MS all had "a guy" they had to call separately.
I understand trying to make the sale, but there is something to be said for the army of tuners out there who support AEM.
I understand trying to make the sale, but there is something to be said for the army of tuners out there who support AEM.
Last edited by EO2K; 03-13-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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03-13-2013, 01:03 PM
#53
This isn't uncommon across the entire continent...
And around here it's not even "just because it's Megasquirt and cheap."
It's because when Megasquirt first started "getting big," they were getting flooded with dumb kids want them to tune their cars equipped with megasquirt that they had installed themselves. They agree to a tuning cost per hour, drop the car off, and then the tuner ends up spending hours and hours just to get the **** to work correctly before even getting to tune. Due to an absolutely shitty install by the kid.
Then kid gets hit with 5 hours of labor plus tuning costs, can't pay, and it's a huge clusterfuck.
This was VERY common.
And unfortunately there's a LARGE percentage of shops that won't touch a Megasquirt car simply because that happened.
Yes, WE know that there's PNPs out there that won't have any of these issues. THEY don't know that, and they don't care to know that.
They see it as "Well... i've been kicked in the ***** 37 times in the last two years, maybe THIS time it'll feel GOOD."
And around here it's not even "just because it's Megasquirt and cheap."
It's because when Megasquirt first started "getting big," they were getting flooded with dumb kids want them to tune their cars equipped with megasquirt that they had installed themselves. They agree to a tuning cost per hour, drop the car off, and then the tuner ends up spending hours and hours just to get the **** to work correctly before even getting to tune. Due to an absolutely shitty install by the kid.
Then kid gets hit with 5 hours of labor plus tuning costs, can't pay, and it's a huge clusterfuck.
This was VERY common.
And unfortunately there's a LARGE percentage of shops that won't touch a Megasquirt car simply because that happened.
Yes, WE know that there's PNPs out there that won't have any of these issues. THEY don't know that, and they don't care to know that.
They see it as "Well... i've been kicked in the ***** 37 times in the last two years, maybe THIS time it'll feel GOOD."
MS3 Pro can now stand next to an AEM or Haltech but that is certainly not the case for the earliest versions of hand soldered boards with poor enclosures susceptible to all kinds of issues built by users who have never used a decent soldering iron. They almost need to ditch the name and call it something else for the high quality custom built versions like the MS3 Pro.
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03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
#58
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I know I'm jumping in a little late, but I want to offer up some information from someone with a slightly different perspective. Full disclosure, I am a former FM employee from the Link ECU era. FM picked up the Hydra about 1 year after I left when the Link went away. Since leaving FM, I have been tuning ECUs on the side since 2005. I mainly support FM customers with Link and Hydra ECUs. I also work with AEM and Xede.
I was disappointed with the Hydra 2.5 came out. I felt the set up time and difficulties with boost control, idle, and starting were unacceptable in an ECU with a $2000 price tag. Still, I set up about 10 or 12 customers with 2.5s and they continue to drive the cars with no further adjustments necessary. Likewise, with 2.6. I felt it was no better then 2.5 and I could only get fuel autotuning to work about 10% of the time. At least with 2.5, auto tuning worked, it was just a little cumbersome. I did a lot of fuel tuning on 2.6s by hand. Regardelss, once set up, the ECU performed well with no further adjustments necessary. With the 2.5 I gave up early on using the EBC function. After much discussion with Jeremy about this, I like to think I conviced him to give up on it as well, but this is purly speculation on my part to boost my ego.
However, 2.7 is a different story. For about the past year all the cars I have set up (about 8) have worked very, very well. The fuel auto tuning is excellent. Starting and idle is as good as OEM. I can not comment of boost control because all my customers are happy with a $100 manual controller.
During all this time, I have been running my 2002 with an older FMII turbo kit with an AEM FIC6 replacing the Link Piggy back. I have never been inclined to install a Hydra because I could not justify the price. I am a husband and father with a mortgage, $2000 is a lot of money for me. However, I made the upgrade this winter based on the performance of my customer's cars. My wife is still angry I spent the money.
To the OP, I fully understand your frustration. Hydra upgrades are very expensive, and you guys who bought in early truley have been screwed. However, if you do upgrade to the 2.7 I can assure you the car will run better. The fuel auto tuning is very easy and effective so you could do it yourself. If you chose to have someone tune it for you, they should be able to set up the car in a few hours and you will never have to touch it again.
I own 2 laptops running Windows XP so I will be able to support older versions of Hydra ECUs for a long time to come.
I was disappointed with the Hydra 2.5 came out. I felt the set up time and difficulties with boost control, idle, and starting were unacceptable in an ECU with a $2000 price tag. Still, I set up about 10 or 12 customers with 2.5s and they continue to drive the cars with no further adjustments necessary. Likewise, with 2.6. I felt it was no better then 2.5 and I could only get fuel autotuning to work about 10% of the time. At least with 2.5, auto tuning worked, it was just a little cumbersome. I did a lot of fuel tuning on 2.6s by hand. Regardelss, once set up, the ECU performed well with no further adjustments necessary. With the 2.5 I gave up early on using the EBC function. After much discussion with Jeremy about this, I like to think I conviced him to give up on it as well, but this is purly speculation on my part to boost my ego.
However, 2.7 is a different story. For about the past year all the cars I have set up (about 8) have worked very, very well. The fuel auto tuning is excellent. Starting and idle is as good as OEM. I can not comment of boost control because all my customers are happy with a $100 manual controller.
During all this time, I have been running my 2002 with an older FMII turbo kit with an AEM FIC6 replacing the Link Piggy back. I have never been inclined to install a Hydra because I could not justify the price. I am a husband and father with a mortgage, $2000 is a lot of money for me. However, I made the upgrade this winter based on the performance of my customer's cars. My wife is still angry I spent the money.
To the OP, I fully understand your frustration. Hydra upgrades are very expensive, and you guys who bought in early truley have been screwed. However, if you do upgrade to the 2.7 I can assure you the car will run better. The fuel auto tuning is very easy and effective so you could do it yourself. If you chose to have someone tune it for you, they should be able to set up the car in a few hours and you will never have to touch it again.
I own 2 laptops running Windows XP so I will be able to support older versions of Hydra ECUs for a long time to come.
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03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
#59
I think this is also part of the problem with MS not being supported. A large part of the community tunes the car themselves with support of others in the community. This also happens to be most of the competent users of MS. The shops, for the most part, get left with people who have no clue what they are doing.
The only shop around here that I know for sure does MS is ISC racing but they also install them.
The only shop around here that I know for sure does MS is ISC racing but they also install them.
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03-13-2013, 01:19 PM
#60
To be honest, it's not really something i care in the slightest about, so i'm not going to be knocking on doors anytime soon.
If i'm taking my car to a tuner, i'm using his choice in standalone, not forcing him to comply with my choice. That's the correct way of doing it.
If i'm taking my car to a tuner, i'm using his choice in standalone, not forcing him to comply with my choice. That's the correct way of doing it.
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