"Forced" Hydra 2.7 upgrade - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:33 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you guys are making it too hard.


here's the top 12 reasons Brain thinks you should buy a AFX:
  1. Has a big bukly sqaure box display that is impossible to mount anywhere, doesn't refresh fast enough, and washes out in direct sunlight.
  2. Only reads between 9.0:1-16.0:1 (1) AFR so has 43% less resolution than most competetors; LC-1 is 7.35:1-23.4:1.(2)
  3. Unconventional so you get no support from the community.
  4. 13' (3) feet of wiring so you can use the excess to make a friendship bracelet for your BFF.
  5. If you do cut the wiring harness to make it a reasonable length, and make a bracelet for your BFF with the leftover, you'll screw up the calibration of the unit (4).
  6. Suggested you calibrate the sensor once a week and once a month at most. (5)
  7. The wiring for the heater and sensor grounds (brown wire) make little sense (6)
  8. It only has 1 output that's not programmable. (7)
  9. Takes 1 minute to warmup (8) before working; the LC-1 takes about 25sec (9).
  10. Cannot datalog on it's own without another device to capture the output signal. (10)
  11. Was the worst sensor in the Ford Muscle Magazine WB shootout: Universal Digital Tuning Products and Tuning Tools from Innovate Motorsports (11)
  12. You'll impress Techsalvager--it's his WBo2 of choice. (12)
1,3,4,5,6,7,8,10 - AFX User manual
2 - LC-1 User Manual
9 - User Experience
11 -Universal Digital Tuning Products and Tuning Tools from Innovate Motorsports
12 - http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=6177062&postcount=2

Crosspost from miata.net
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:34 PM   #102
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Brain was original in like 2007.

Now he just copy/pastas everything


*edit: actually nvm. he was never original. he just copypastas his previous copypasta
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:40 PM   #103
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i wrote that only a few weeks ago.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:14 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I like the NTK wideband, I hate the fact that they're morons and refuse to make it with a 52mm round gauge.
The downsides of the Powerdex are definitely packaging, no logging package like the Innovate, higher price and a lack of a programmable 0-1v output (though it has a 0-5v analog out).

It really only does one thing which is control the NTK or Bosch sensor properly, dump out an analog and display the reading on the screen. However, it does that thing better than any other controller up to the $1500 range where you are then comparing ECM product to other ECM product (calibration quality equipment to ther calibration quality equipment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
  1. Has a big bukly sqaure box display that impossible to mount anywhere, doesn't refresh fast enough, and washes out in direct sunlight.
  2. Only reads between 9.0:1-16.0:1 AFR so has 43% less resolution than most competetors; LC-1 is 7.35:1-23.4:1.
  3. Unconventional so you get no support from the community.
  4. 13' feet of wiring so you can use the excess to make a friendship bracelet for your BFF.
  5. If you do cut the wiring harness to make it a reasonable length, and make a bracelet for your BFF with the leftover, you'll screw up the calibration of the unit.
  6. Suggested you calibrate the sensor once a week and once a month at most.
  7. The wiring for the heater and sensor grounds (brown wire) make little sense
  8. It only has 1 output that's not programmable.
  9. Takes 1 minute to warmup before working; the LC-1 takes about 25sec.
  10. Cannot datalog on it's own without another device to capture the output signal.
  11. Was the worst sensor in the Ford Muscle Magazine WB shootout: Universal Digital Tuning Products and Tuning Tools from Innovate Motorsports
  12. You'll impress Techsalvager--it's his WBo2 of choice.
  1. It is a big bulky box due to board design. You can call this a quality advantage or lament the packaging which many don't like. Display refresh speed argument is just a preference issue, I have it connected to logger. I don't have trouble with the display in our cars but it non-compensated display (no sensor to adjust for ambient conditions). I do with more products in general were compensated.
  2. Better resolution in useable range was their design choice as the sensor can go even wider. But why go wider? Do you need to see 8.0 vs 9.0? No, you are way too rich. Stop going rich stupid. Vice versa above 16.
  3. It is so simple, what is there to support? It works reliably which is good. It has been around for a long time now with solid sales so there are plenty our there.
  4. 13' of wiring so you can change to your needs, great for boats trucks etc.
  5. It is possible to modify the harness but they suggest not with good reason. That simple reason is the pervasive wiring faults that aftermarket users introduce in wiring cause problems. Solution is "do not modify" in manual. Ground faults with Innovate products were near constant around the time of the LC-1 introduction, many of which were due to customer installation issues.
  6. Sensor calibration procedure is the same for any controller not using the cal resistor. Using cal resistor allows drift over time. Free air calibration is high level method and engineers recommend you check this often because they like accuracy. This is controller independent unless you are using a cal resistor based controller which as stated allows drift.
  7. Ok, it comes with a manual.
  8. Yes. Would be nice to have programmable output.
  9. They both load the heater circuit at max on startup which is determined by the heater in the sensor.
  10. Yes. It only does it's one task but does it well.
  11. Bad link, here is your article Wideband O2 Sensor Shootout! | FordMuscle Magazine . Lot's of problems in that article covered extensively in other resources online which I won't cover here. It is also noteworthy that at the time the Powerdex was sold with the Bosch sensor and now sells with the NTK sensor (since 2010). It can use a relatively wide variety of sensors.
  12. Yeah, seem to have hit a sore spot and don't care. Don't know who Techsalvager is and also don't care.

I only went through this because some of the arguments are just asinine like the range (stop going rich stupid) and having to calibrate often (all units that require calibration have exactly the same requirement, if the NGK people happen to tell you to calibrate more often then they are just asking you to be more diligent but this is happenstance and not a function of product quality).

I will stop with threadjack now. Today with the features available, software etc I think I would end up going EMS-4 due to price / performance. Also thinking about the Hydra a little more, each time they are doing an upgrade from say 2.6 to 2.7 they are doing a board change and really offering a different product. Were it AEM they would like give it a new name and consider it an independent product. AEM would keep the old product alive and well with full function and continue to support it.

With that said, the Hydra method does force the upgrade path considering it a linear, moving product. Their method is fundamentally unique and a marketing / support nightmare for a reseller. Especially when some versions are just duds. If AEM released a dud independent product, it would get an independent product based bad reputation and simply not sell well. AEM would release a new version, call it something else fix the issues and move on. In the Hydra method a bad product or rev affects the entire line and company in a much more fundamental way.

Even if Hydra Nemesis 2.7 is great (and it is MUCH better than 2.6 in so many ways), it will take a long time to flush the bad rep of other recent versions and the upgrade path just tends to leave customers dissatisfied.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:19 PM   #105
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tl;dr the AFX is a joke.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:20 PM   #106
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Everything you just said is a terrible terrible "argument' and Brain is going to have a field day with it.

Just saying

Q-Why does the range suck?
A-Do you REALLY need a wider range?
Q-Why is the packaging bad?
A-Do you REALLY need better packaging?
Q-Etc
A-Stupid pathetic excuses why the product is inferior to everything and counter-questions along the lines "do you absolutely need this?"

terrible
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #107
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Hey, excuse me I'd like the range to make it somewhere leaner than 17 because lean cruise.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:23 PM   #108
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My car easily cruises above 16.0:1 when i've got it set up for long hauls.

I don't want to sit there watching that stupid box freaking out showing nothing or error or whatever the hell it does.




This all said, we've been using it on my buddy's MR2 Turbo for a long time and it's been pretty reliable. The display does suck in sunlight for sure.

I'd use one if given to me for free, but i'd never buy one.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:35 PM   #109
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Yeah, so this forum hates the AFX. A continuation should be moved to it's own thread or just end threadjack which was in my "tl;dr". The end of my "tl;dr" is about AEM / Hydra stuff per thread.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:46 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtjballeng View Post
Also thinking about the Hydra a little more, each time they are doing an upgrade from say 2.6 to 2.7 they are doing a board change and really offering a different product. Were it AEM they would like give it a new name and consider it an independent product. AEM would keep the old product alive and well with full function and continue to support it.
I've never owned or used a Hyrda. But I'm just guessing that they do the 'upgrade' thing rather than call it an entirely new product because the features that were advertised for 2.5 didn't actually work until 2.7. If it wasn't an upgrade, they would have even more people pissed at them for that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:55 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
I've never owned or used a Hyrda. But I'm just guessing that they do the 'upgrade' thing rather than call it an entirely new product because the features that were advertised for 2.5 didn't actually work until 2.7. If it wasn't an upgrade, they would have even more people pissed at them for that.
Seems to be just the way they do it. They keep the same name and just keep reving it up. As far as I know (I'm not up on all the Hydra history) that is how they have done it for years back to V2 and perhaps earlier.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:20 PM   #112
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Haha I was sort of joking. If you promise X in 2.5, but it doesn't work, and then you try to release v3.0 with X working, people aren't going to be happy.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:22 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Haha I was sort of joking. If you promise X in 2.5, but it doesn't work, and then you try to release v3.0 with X working, people aren't going to be happy.
I heard people like paying for electronic boost control 3 times.

The part that still gets me pissed is that if you pay for extra "unlocks" on an earlier version and you want to upgrade, you have to pay for those same unlocks AGAIN.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:03 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I have 2.6 hydra installed on my 64 bit windows 7 PC. The installer just has the dumb and installs half the program to c/program files/hydra and the other half to c/program files (x86)/hydra. I dont even think that would be a problem on a 32 bit windows. The installer also has the dumb and if for some reason you dont have a c drive it wont install at all.
Sorry for the OT, but I just signed into this forum for the first time in years, as I recently obtained Sonny/VagaXT's Hydra 2.6 and couldn't figure out why the hell the installer wasn't working. Google/forum searches gave nothing. I randomly read through this thread, as it was near the top of the forum, and bam, there's my answer. Much thanks
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:01 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devgru38 View Post
Sorry for the OT, but I just signed into this forum for the first time in years, as I recently obtained Sonny/VagaXT's Hydra 2.6 and couldn't figure out why the hell the installer wasn't working. Google/forum searches gave nothing. I randomly read through this thread, as it was near the top of the forum, and bam, there's my answer. Much thanks
Sonny gave me a ride in that car, it's a nice piece.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Sonny gave me a ride in that car, it's a nice piece.
Plus he is a nice guy AND a hell of a driver
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:50 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
If i'm this pissed now, think how shitty i'd be if i was actually the person that had actually purchased the EMS new and had it installed on my car. (Rhetorically of course, because i'm not actually dumb enough to buy one outright.)

I shudder to think that there's some poor ******* out there that bought 2.1, and have purchased every upgrade along the way, paying to have their **** retuned every time.

It's conceivable to think that someone has $8-$10k in this piece of **** EMS.


Good point though Sav. AEM or Haltech are on my short list for this particular car.
Wanna buy my AEM? I just swapped to a Hydra 2.7.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:18 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill View Post
For the Megasquirt options I went to this website, MegaSquirtPNP Plug-and-Play MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems by DIYAutoTune Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com I did not find a plug and play unit for a 2002 car last summer and I do not see one now.

Yes the AEM EMS4 is out there, but it is not a plug in and I did not want to make a harness for it. My car is a daily driver. I expect it to start and idle perfectly with the AC on. I did not get the feeling the the EMS 4 is up to the task of giving me OEM performance. AEM support is good, but not Miata specific.

I have set up 24 customer cars with Hydra ECUs. Its a known qunatity for me. Like I said above, I was very impressed by the performance of my customer cars running 2.7 ECUs so I decided it was the best option for me.
We have not yet released a plug and play for 01+ Miatas. However you certainly could use a MS3X or MS3-Pro EMS and wire an adapter harness from the MS3 to the Miata's stock harness. That would install the same as a Hydra does, as the Hydra is not really a plug and play so much as comes with a plug-in adapter harness.

However the prototype 01+ MSPNP is currently running in my car right now. We were just waiting to knock out a few little things, and those things are now done. Our PIDs work very well, so boost control, idle, VVT, and alternator control all work spectacularly, all closed loop, no excuses. It is MS3 based and will retail for substantially less than Hydra. Expect release shortly.

Future firmware updates occur at no charge. The hardware, software, and firmware developers are openly contactable and provide support via email and forums. Do you ever see the developers of Haltech, Hydra, AEM, et all supporting forums and asking users for their feature requests? Common with MegaSquirt.

Tuning software is compatible with 32 or 64 bit Windows XP, 7, 8; Linux; Mac OS X 10.5+

Datalog programs are also available on Android. Android tuning interface release expected this summer. Android interfaces communicate via bluetooth, via serial > bluetooth adapter plugged into MegaSquirt.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:30 PM   #119
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Its a race between you and Reverant to see who gets my money for a PnP solution for my 01. Get to it!
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:00 AM   #120
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Like I posted in miata.net, you can get a Basic MS3 for the 01-05 from us. VVT control included.

Attached Thumbnails
"Forced" Hydra 2.7 upgrade-basic_ms3_v2.1.jpg  
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