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Old 06-26-2009, 08:29 PM   #1
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I didn't want to crap on the already-existing thread, but I've been doing some reading on the Ultima Can-Am and the F5 GTM.

I have to admit, I'm starting to like 'em. The Can-Am is a tad ugly, and the GTM is a hardtop, but there's something... alluring about the idea.

You may recall that I recently posted about how the C500 turned out a 1:17.4 on the Top Gear track. Well, it turns out that Ultima took their GTR out to the track for a spin as well.

And they turned out a 1:12.8.

On street tires.

From a standing start.

1:12.8.

4.3 seconds faster than the Gumpert Apollo, 2.1 seconds away from the $2 million FXX, which was running on slicks.

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Old 06-26-2009, 08:56 PM   #2
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Holy ****. Takes the hammerhead like its nothing.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:41 PM   #3
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Looks like a car Steve McQueen would be happy to drive.....I LIKE IT !
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:58 PM   #4
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This video also proves that LSx > *.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:08 PM   #5
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So, the $30,000 question, from someone who knows jack **** about American Iron:

Assuming a vehicle and bellhousing designed to accept an LS engine, would it be difficult to install a smallblock from a '60s vintage GM vehicle into it?
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
So, the $30,000 question, from someone who knows jack **** about American Iron:

Assuming a vehicle and bellhousing designed to accept an LS engine, would it be difficult to install a smallblock from a '60s vintage GM vehicle into it?
The Chevrolet 350 small block has not changed its foot print since its inception, so yes.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
The Chevrolet 350 small block has not changed its foot print since its inception, so yes.
I thought that this was the case, but wasn't certain.

Does this hold true for all GM smallblocks? (Bellhousing, input shaft, engine mounts and so on are all directly compatible?) IOW, from a mechanical standpoint a person could build such a car with the 283 / 307 / 327 from a '60s vintage Chevelle or Nova, and then at some point later on (say, after having gone through the initial registration process) remove said engine and install an LS engine?
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:19 PM   #8
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I think so.
Chevrolet Small-Block engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to that, all the LS series and engines and their predecessors were identical. However, based on it linking a bunch of GM variants in the see also, I want to assume that they too would be equally compatible.

I am going to hit up my friend who is a big dumbestic fanatic and ask him to get you a definite answer. If anyone will know, he will.
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:45 PM   #9
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Been doing some research as well. From my VW days came the memory of Kennedy Engineered Products, who make adapters to hang weird engines off of VW & Porsche transmissions. Subarus were getting popular when I tuned out. Looks like their product catalog has grown considerably since then.

There are apparently different configurations for pre-'86, '86+, and LS-series, but they make adapters for 'em all, and specifically list the G50 transmission as one they support.

Engine Adapters

Looks like there are many other options as well- Buick, Ford, a bunch of V6 stuff, etc... Seems a person could grab the motor out of damn near any pre-'68 passenger car and make it fit.


I have a feeling that this is going to end up costing me a lot of money...
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:45 PM   #10
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I think I was right. Chevy small blocks are identical since inception up the gen 3 ls engines which are LSx are different.

This is direct from him:
Quote:
well "GM" doesn't have a bellhousing pattern... all Chevy V8s use the same pattern, as well as all the old Chevy inline 6 cylinders.. the LSx uses the same pattern... But old Buick/Oldsmobile/Pontiac V8s used their own pattern, which was also shared with Cadillac, until GM started using CHevy v8s across the board in about '81
Quote:
well if we're talking about old cars, and by old I mean 70's and earlier, there were only three automatic transmissions used.. The two speed powerglide, and two three speeds: the TH350 and TH400. all of these transmissions were available either in the Chevy pattern, or B/O/P/C pattern. same transmission regardless of bellhousing pattern
Quote:
all the chevy small blocks from '57-'98 used the same motor mount bosses. the generation I small block ran until the LT series motors werre introduced in um... the early 90's? then it was referred to as Generation II, but in reality not much was different.. the LSx series is generation three, and they are totally different in every way.
Quote:
Buick, oldsmobile, pontiac and cadillac all had their own seperate V8s in the 60s and 70s.. they all used the same bellhousing bolt pattern, but they were all different in every other way, including motor mounts

Last edited by Saml01; 06-27-2009 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 12:02 AM   #11
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Ultima GTR has always held a special place in my heart and ********* since its inception. Unfortunately its total costs are out of what I would be comfortable spending. Maybe down the road if my pay increases I wouldn't mind starting one as a project. Why buy a car for the same price when you can build one that will blow anything away that you will find on the streets or at the track. But just the base parts totals almost $30k after shipping costs, and that leaves engine, trans and probably some other important and expensive stuff. So by the time all is said and done, probably $50k. Still a bargain if you have the money. I would be happy just having the car minus engine and trans just to gawk at and sit in and make engine noises.
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:53 AM   #12
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As a related and somewhat interesting aside- the old 6.2/6.5 pre-Duramax diesels (developed mostly by Detroit Diesel) will bolt in directly in place of a smallblock/bigblock (designed to use the same mounts/bellhousings/etc. for manufacturing ease), which can lead to interesting engine swaps- I can think of at least one diesel Corvette. How cool would it be to have a new 6500 Optimizer HO turbodiesel (current HMMWV engine) in one of those things? Run tracks R10/R15 style.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:35 PM   #13
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The Ultima is a bad *** machine. I saw a yellow one a few weeks ago passing by as I was getting into my car, I froze when I saw it, my jaw dropped and the sounds it made me feel good in places only my wife is allowed to touch. The Ultima was being followed or chased by red Ferrari which sounded nice but I see them daily so no biggie and there was a third car, I know it was a high dollar car but I was in such aw that I can't remember what it was. I had to rush home and Google Ultima Can-am to learn what that badass machine was. I so ******* want one!!
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:38 PM   #14
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It's also nice to watch one of those videos without what's his name talking.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:51 PM   #15
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And things get more complicated. I have discovered the Exocars.net forum.

Back when I first heard about the Atom (and its attendant price tag) I remember wishing that there were some way to purchase just the rolling chassis' worth of parts in kit form. I started looking at GTM / Can-Am style cars largely because it seemed that nothing was available that really fit the bill otherwise.

Well, it took some time but a couple of kit manufacturers are now doing vehicles that are extremely Atom-esque, and of course the sky is the limit as to what you could do drivetrain-wise

The one that really catches my eye is the Mongrel:



First off, it's ******* beautiful.

It does, however, seem just a little sketchy. It's a new company, run by an Australian living in China. They don't have any finished cars yet, however he does have a rolling frame and is making progress on the body molds: Flickr: Cheapracer's Photostream One thing that really bugs me is that he keeps talking about a de-dion rear suspension, and regardless of the technical merits, I'd really rather see a fully independent double A-arm or multi-link system.

It is, however, ******* beautiful. And he's talking in the range of ~$10k for a rolling chassis.


Contestant #2 is the SuperLight Roadster. This company does in fact have some history, and a few SL-Rs have been completed. I like the frame design, I like the suspension, and he's got off-the-shelf mounting packages for Honda K20/K24, GM Ecotec, Mitsu 4G63 and Dodge SRT-4.

The downside is that it's ugly:



Now, there appear to be a couple of different bodywork options. That one is the "Modern F1" design, there's also a "Classic Gran Prix" nose that might offend me less if only I could find a picture of it. On the plus side, I like what they've done with using two small rear-mounted radiators, so you don't have to have all that hot air blowing back onto you all the time. Price is $16k for an assembled roller including the wheels.


Seems like either of these would easily lend themselves to having a stock Honda Civic engine dropped in, registered, and then removed in favor of a 'Busa engine with minimal modification (basically a new set of axles and a sort of engine subframe cradle.)


Decisions, decisions...
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:11 PM   #16
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I think the yellow one looks better. I think the Atom is as ugly as it is fast.

I wonder what the Superlight will look like with fenders, bumpers and other safety gear?
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
I think the yellow one looks better. I think the Atom is as ugly as it is fast.

I wonder what the Superlight will look like with fenders, bumpers and other safety gear?
See, I think that the top one looks better. It's both the nose and the fact that it comes with an engine cover and wing. The SL leaves the engine bay nekkid, which I don't like, and I really suck at fiberglass fabrication.

OTOH, the SL-R is beginning to grow on me...


I'm thinking black seats, black glass, black wheels, but a red frame.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:24 AM   #18
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it needs 6ul's though. No sense in paying several hundred more for track rubber just for the big wheels.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:32 AM   #19
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Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion about that on the ExoCars forum. The stock hub configuration is for Corvette wheels, and the stock brake package won't fit anything smaller than 17s.

This, of course, is lunacy.

Still, since it's a DIY affair, I can't imagine that it would be too hard to fabricate hubs that will fit in the stock geometry but utilize the complete brake package from some common, lightweight, RWD car which uses a 4x100 pattern like, oh, a Miata for instance.

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Old 06-30-2009, 10:43 AM   #20
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(anyone notice the snapin air vents on the gtr?)
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