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Old 06-30-2009, 01:25 PM   #21
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screw the SBC stuff... go on YT and look for the Ultima with the Lexus V8 in it... just go type in "0-211 in 19 seconds"....
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:54 PM   #22
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screw the SBC stuff... go on YT and look for the Ultima with the Lexus V8 in it... just go type in "0-211 in 19 seconds"....
Actually, I'm thinking about screwing the V8 stuff altogether.

Think about it- the SL-R tips the scales at about 1,300 lbs with a car engine and transmission in it. With a 'Busa engine, figure it's close to 1,100 lbs. With a turbo and a head spacer, the Busa will do 300 HP reliably. That's 550 hp/ton.

The GTR weighs 990kg (2180 lbs) with an aluminum Chevy V8 in it. Maybe with the Lexus you could get it down to 2,000 even. You'd need 550hp in that to get to the same ratio, and you've still get a heavy car.

Now I grant you, the SL-R has the aerodynamic properties of a wrench. But I still love the panache of a sequential gearbox and a fully open exoskeletal car.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:02 PM   #23
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why not just locost your maita and wtf is your fixation with starting on a Carb era motor?
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:28 PM   #24
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why not just locost your maita
Well, I've thought about it. And I haven't totally abandoned the idea. As I see it, the plusses and minuses:

+ I already have all the hardware.
+ Cheapest option.

- I don't particularly like the aesthetics of the Sevens in general.
- Emotionally, I really want a sequential gearbox.
- It deprives me of the Miata.



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and wtf is your fixation with starting on a Carb era motor?
You mean a pre-CARB motor?

In the state of California, if you are lucky enough to score a Certificate of Sequence, then you have the option of registering your homebuilt vehicle as the year of the engine which it contains. IOW, a GTM with the engine from a '64 Nova would be registered as a 1964 FFR GTM. This means that if you get in with a '67 or older registration, you are exempt from smog testing forever. And remember that in CA, the smog test consists not merely of a measurement of actual tailpipe emissions (or an OBD-II plugin test) but also a visual inspection. This means that you're very limited in terms of what you can do with exhaust headers, forced induction, water injection, ignition systems, etc.

I think that when you register a new kit car, even if you miss the CoS disbursement for the year (only 500 are issued, and they generally go within the first few minutes of the DMV opening on the first business day of every year) then even though your vehicle gets registered as a current-year model, the smog requirements may still be set to the standard that applied to the donor engine.

Either way, there are huge advantages to starting out with a pre-CARB engine and then swapping up after registration.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:37 PM   #25
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You want a better solution???

















Move out of shitty CARB-riddled-and-choked California. I could never live there based on the crappy laws applied to modd'ing cars....and the **** you call "gas".
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Well, I've thought about it. And I haven't totally abandoned the idea. As I see it, the plusses and minuses:

+ I already have all the hardware.
+ Cheapest option.

- I don't particularly like the aesthetics of the Sevens in general.
- Emotionally, I really want a sequential gearbox.
- It deprives me of the Miata.



You mean a pre-CARB motor?

In the state of California, if you are lucky enough to score a Certificate of Sequence, then you have the option of registering your homebuilt vehicle as the year of the engine which it contains. IOW, a GTM with the engine from a '64 Nova would be registered as a 1964 FFR GTM. This means that if you get in with a '67 or older registration, you are exempt from smog testing forever. And remember that in CA, the smog test consists not merely of a measurement of actual tailpipe emissions (or an OBD-II plugin test) but also a visual inspection. This means that you're very limited in terms of what you can do with exhaust headers, forced induction, water injection, ignition systems, etc.

I think that when you register a new kit car, even if you miss the CoS disbursement for the year (only 500 are issued, and they generally go within the first few minutes of the DMV opening on the first business day of every year) then even though your vehicle gets registered as a current-year model, the smog requirements may still be set to the standard that applied to the donor engine.

Either way, there are huge advantages to starting out with a pre-CARB engine and then swapping up after registration.
that was my reasoning as well. just wondered if there was a secret fetish in you for flaot bowls and jets with mechanical adcanve distributors :P .
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:51 PM   #27
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Move out of shitty CARB-riddled-and-choked California. I could never live there based on the crappy laws applied to modd'ing cars....and the **** you call "gas".
Actually, I did move away from CA last August, and it's the third worst decision I've ever made. I can't even begin to describe how much I miss the beautiful terrain, the scenic ocean-to-desert landscapes, the always mild weather, and the most incredible public roads this side of the 'Ring. (And yes, I've seen that thing you NC guys call the Dragon. It's a Gecko compared to Palomar.)

Seriously. I know CA has its share of problems. The government is bankrupt, the automotive bureaucracy is a pain to deal with, and they get the gasoline that was deemed not quite good enough to sell in Baja, Mexico. But I have made it a standing near-term goal to move back there.


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that was my reasoning as well. just wondered if there was a secret fetish in you for flaot bowls and jets with mechanical adcanve distributors :P .
Not at all. I went through that phase when I was into ACVWs in the early to mid '90s. Today, I loathe jetting carburettors and playing with distributor weights with every fiber of my being. Give me a laptop and a wideband and I'm in my happy place.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Well, I've thought about it. And I haven't totally abandoned the idea. As I see it, the plusses and minuses:

+ I already have all the hardware.
+ Cheapest option.

- I don't particularly like the aesthetics of the Sevens in general.
- Emotionally, I really want a sequential gearbox.
- It deprives me of the Miata.
you can find a strategically wrecked donor car for almost nothing. and probably net closer to nothing on the sell-off of parts.

then call up Autokonxion and have them make you a sweet non-wrench shaped fairing for the body and you're ready to rock the sauce.
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:01 PM   #29
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I think he meant carburetor.

I'm thinking a 1300lb car with a 300hp motor would be just about right. Light enough you don't have to go crazy with brakes and supporting equipment. Hate to suggest this here of all places but Honda puts out some very strong motors that flow better and weigh less too.

Closed car like the Superlight's and I'd be all over the GM V8. Cheaper and easier than the lexus 8. Also on YT is an Ultima with a 1000hp twin turbo LS motor from Swartz. I'm not sure I'd care whether I could turn a lousy 211 in the standing mile vs. the 219 of the lexus powered version. Schwartz Performance, Inc. :: Projects :: Twin Turbo Ultima LS2 GTR

As far as a locost from a Miata donor, who says it has to look like a 7? Just because that's common and popular doesn't mean that's the only way to go. There are several of those Atom-ish kits made for Miata donors. I'm sure you've been all over Kit Car List - Kitcar & Replica Manufacturers, Builders & Dealers Copyright Kit Car List™
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:01 PM   #30
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you can find a strategically wrecked donor car for almost nothing. and probably net closer to nothing on the sell-off of parts.
That would be a plus for any car of '90s vintage, including a Honda. It fails the pre-'67 test, but with the transverse mid-engine exocar design, I can see swapping motors every other year for the test.

Quote:
then call up Autokonxion and have them make you a sweet non-wrench shaped fairing for the body and you're ready to rock the sauce.
You know, that's an absolutely fabulous idea. Truthfully, I never really considered having someone else do the body work, but I see from their website that they do this sort of thing semi-regularly. I wonder what they'd charge to fabricate a nose section and engine lid?
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:04 PM   #31
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you can find a strategically wrecked donor car for almost nothing. and probably net closer to nothing on the sell-off of parts.
+1. This is how I got into Miatas. I bought a couple of donor cars for my Locost build. Netted out for zero after taking what I needed from two cars and sold the rest. Got everything that I needed for my build.

Alas, I sold the project before I finished it. If you do decide to go the seven route, I have (AFAIK) the only set of dimensions for installing the Miata IRS PROPERLY into a sevenesque car. I did the full simulation of camber gain, roll centers, etc via Wishbone software. I have all of the upper and lower A-Arm pickups, etc. It actually came out better than the stock Miata geometry.

A well-built seven clone with a 240WHP turbo, WI, no IC Miata motor would be a blast.
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:28 PM   #32
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I'm betting there are a lot of companies that could help with body parts. Here's one that comes to mind. I'd guess most of the kit companies making stuff you like, will sell individual parts if you sweet talk them.

Showcars Fiberglass&Steel Bodyparts Unlimited
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:33 PM   #33
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That would be a plus for any car of '90s vintage, including a Honda. It fails the pre-'67 test, but with the transverse mid-engine exocar design, I can see swapping motors every other year for the test.

You know, that's an absolutely fabulous idea. Truthfully, I never really considered having someone else do the body work, but I see from their website that they do this sort of thing semi-regularly. I wonder what they'd charge to fabricate a nose section and engine lid?
Oh the pre 67 test.. good point. so can you just dig up any ol block and build it however you like or what?

How hard would it be to build a ladder frame between two miata subframes? ditch all the ugly under car components for some 949 suspension arms and whatnot and dayam son!

I would imagine that each major body panel would cost about 10x what the going rate is for one of any given car. I'm guessing purely based on the initial group buys most places do... cover the mfg costs by selling 10 immediately. so you might be in for 10k+ in body work. oof.
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:24 PM   #34
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so you might be in for 10k+ in body work. oof.
Racecar bodywork places will build you a custom formula-style body for about $3k everything included.

One person that I can vouch for, Dave Craddock at Preform Resources:

Preform Resources

The website is crappy but here's the pudding:

http://preformresources.com/gallery/
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:52 PM   #35
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I guess some background is in order.

A person who is a member of the forum and who also runs a shop out in CA is encouraging me to move back out to CA and start a business doing electronics and related custom **** for race cars and millionaires' toys. I am strongly considering this.

It occurs to me that in such a situation, it would be a beneficial promotional tool to possess an exotic car to use as a technology showcase and demonstrator. In other words, a great excuse for me to build the car I've been dreaming of for a while and claim it all as tax deductible.

The catch, of course, it that it has to be something that really catches the eye, and of course it has to be truly professional-looking. Given my welding skills, this rules out a Locost, and frankly, it rules out a lot of other **** as well. No Cobras, no GT ripoffs, no 356/550 clones, etc.

I see two broad categories. The first is the modern Supercars. The Ultima GTR, the FFR GTM, etc. These, to my eye, just reek of serious racecar. They also have sufficient interior space that they could easily accommodate a plethora of electronic gadgetry. On the downside, they're expensiver to do right, and they don't really satisfy my own personal desires in a car.

Second would be the pocket rockets. Basically the atomesque cars. I almost hesitate grouping the sevens into this category as I find their look dated, they're too common, and they don't evoke an image of ultra-modern superformance to me. More an image of an old Brit in a tweed blazer carrying a basket of bread and cheese on his way to the hunt. OTOH, a well-executed Exocar, to my mind, appears sufficiently "serious" to convey the image that I'm trying to express.

I dunno. Right now it's still pipe dreams and "what ifs" with no firm plans to speak of.

I like the idea of starting with a bare chassis and then going to a fabricator to have the body done. If it can be done for even $5k, I consider that a bargain. (We're only talking about a nose, an engine cover, and a wing.)
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:37 AM   #36
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I guess some background is in order.

A person who is a member of the forum and who also runs a shop out in CA is encouraging me to move back out to CA and start a business doing electronics and related custom **** for race cars and millionaires' toys. I am strongly considering this.

It occurs to me that in such a situation, it would be a beneficial promotional tool to possess an exotic car to use as a technology showcase and demonstrator. In other words, a great excuse for me to build the car I've been dreaming of for a while and claim it all as tax deductible.

The catch, of course, it that it has to be something that really catches the eye, and of course it has to be truly professional-looking. Given my welding skills, this rules out a Locost, and frankly, it rules out a lot of other **** as well. No Cobras, no GT ripoffs, no 356/550 clones, etc.

I see two broad categories. The first is the modern Supercars. The Ultima GTR, the FFR GTM, etc. These, to my eye, just reek of serious racecar. They also have sufficient interior space that they could easily accommodate a plethora of electronic gadgetry. On the downside, they're expensiver to do right, and they don't really satisfy my own personal desires in a car.

Second would be the pocket rockets. Basically the atomesque cars. I almost hesitate grouping the sevens into this category as I find their look dated, they're too common, and they don't evoke an image of ultra-modern superformance to me. More an image of an old Brit in a tweed blazer carrying a basket of bread and cheese on his way to the hunt. OTOH, a well-executed Exocar, to my mind, appears sufficiently "serious" to convey the image that I'm trying to express.

I dunno. Right now it's still pipe dreams and "what ifs" with no firm plans to speak of.

I like the idea of starting with a bare chassis and then going to a fabricator to have the body done. If it can be done for even $5k, I consider that a bargain. (We're only talking about a nose, an engine cover, and a wing.)
So your gonna help tom at FFS with R&D on his new powercard. Brilliant.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:47 AM   #37
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I've always though a sequential trans in a Miata would be freakin cool. I could see an EP/GT3 looking Miata,lightweight FRP bodywork, tubbed, tubular chassis reinforcements, no frame rails beyond the front subframe attachment points, no roof, vestigal polycarbonate windscreen, custom polished aluminum roll bar, stripped bare, 13x9 & 13x10" wheels shod with 225/50/13 A6's, with a say, um, 270whp turbocharged Hayabusa motor. Little LED tail lights, tiny projector headlights. Every part of the tub that didn't make it faster is hacked away. It would have to weigh no more than about 1600lbs.

Could be sorta fun to drive.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:36 AM   #38
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I've always though a sequential trans in a Miata would be freakin cool. (...) with a say, um, 270whp turbocharged Hayabusa motor. (...) It would have to weigh no more than about 1600lbs.
That's the real key. I think 1,600 lbs is even too much to be asking of a bike motor, and specifically a bike gearbox and clutch. I do tend to have zany ideas from time to time, but I'm a realist and I know the limitations of what you can ask of such a drivetrain. There are plenty of folks out there who poo-poo the idea of running a bike engine even in a 1,000 lb car, and they have a point.

OTOH, I have seen a couple of sequential-shift conversions done for various Honda applications, where only the shifter itself needed to be replaced. Granted that these are cable-shifted cars, but I can envision something along these lines being done for the MX5.

Now, if someone would only produce a lightweight aluminum engine block...



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So your gonna help tom at FFS with R&D on his new powercard. Brilliant.
Busted.

No, it seems now that I've actually laid hands on Fun02SE's triple powercard-equipped FFS-charged car, Tom and I have reached a sort of stalemate position. He can no longer accuse me of speculating about the devices with no first-hand experiance, and I no longer have to try to surreptitiously milk him for information. I really was surprised when I found out just how limited the expansion capabilities of the PCP were. You know how they advertise that you can hook it up to a computer and change the maps? Well, I'd always assumed that it has a USB or RS-232 port on it. Turns out it requires a special header connector on the back, and they will not sell these to anyone in order to maintain their exclusive duopoly on programming them.

And no, I'm not going to bother trying to reverse engineer it.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:56 PM   #39
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Met another victim of Tom's the other day. Went to buy a couple parts off craigslist. Guy had a 99 with a new motor to replace the one that couldn't stand up to the awesomeness that is powercard and e-cooling.

Looking forward to whatever you decide to build. Will be fun to follow as it progresses.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:06 PM   #40
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It's a Gecko compared to Palomar
You mean the road up to the observatory? If so I agree, that is a fantastic road. Plus at the top of the run, you can stop and check out IMO one of the most amazing devices created by man, the Hale 200" telescope.

I was also wondering what a Busa motor was capable of with stock internals. I was looking at the Mr. Turbo site the other night to get an idea and what you said echoes what they have on their site.

I think a stripped Miata chassis with a turbo Busa motor would be a hoot. I do not think it would be hard to do either. Like you said though, the transmission may not be up to the abuse of moving a heavy car. Running really short gearing in the differential could help, as well as not mounting really grippy tires (to limit torque). But then, without grip, what is the point? Building a tube frame chassis with the same attachment points as the suspension and stock powertrain is an interesting idea too.

I agree, something like the FFR GTM would be a lot more impressive to potential clients than an Atom-like car.
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