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Old 07-01-2009, 03:11 PM   #41
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Not to jack my own thread too much, but I wonder just how light you could really get a Miata? Does anybody know what the dressed engine and transmission weigh as a unit?

(Tries to imagine what a turbo Gixxer engine would look like in a Miata engine bay)
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:22 PM   #42
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IIRC, 1.8 is around 375+75 lbs. so you would save about 220 lbs.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:38 PM   #43
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Well, back to the powerplants...

The pre-1967 standard gives me an idea. There are turbo exhaust manifolds readily available for the small block Chevy. Aftermarket aluminum heads flow very well and are very cheap. Turbo camshaft grinds already exist. Steel cranks and forged or aluminum rods are cheaper for the SBC than any other pre-67 choice. The iron block would meet the production date criteria. And you are already a wizard with the Megasquirt that would surely control it. Light, cheap, strong, available, and turbocharged. Add a little water injection and...poof!...fire breathing dragon. An early test mule for the ATI Procharger (~18 years ago) was a '69 Camaro with low compression pistons that made 900+ horsepower on pump gas at around 12-14 psi, IIRC. We all know that modern turbos would kick the **** out of that. You would be able to make reliable horsepower at supercar levels on a damn reasonable budget that way.

And if your customers needed more power, you know how to pick upgrade turbos, intercoolers, water/meth systems, nitrous, and/or upgrade to a big block. Performance parts for small block Chevy are the least expensive and most plentiful, love 'em or hate 'em. Being a cheap bastard that likes to go fast, I'd be looking hard at that.

If only somebody was making turbo exhaust manifolds to fit my 7.6 liter Pontiac engine...
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:42 PM   #44
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Here you go Joe. GTM in the paint shop. Pick your color. $55K

Almost Finished GTM - FFCobra.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

Or this one - much cheaper but needs more work. He has 37K in it but knows that he won't get that out of it.

http://www.ffcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207612
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
Here you go Joe. GTM in the paint shop. Pick your color. $55K

Almost Finished GTM - FFCobra.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

Or this one - much cheaper but needs more work. He has 37K in it but knows that he won't get that out of it.

GTM Kit (90% of needed parts) for sale - FFCobra.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
Boooo, register to view pictures fail.

Chris
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:28 PM   #46
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Boooo, register to view pictures fail.

Chris
I have an account over there, actually.
















One thing that I found is that most people don't actually "build" kit cars in that price range. I mean, they "build" the cars like people say "we're building a house on this lot that we bought." They aren't physically building it. In all likelyhood, they aren't even overseeing it. They're just paying for it. I mean, a few people do actually build the things, but most have them built by somebody else. I got some really dumbass answers to relatively simple technical questions from people who were supposedly quite knowledgeable. Really disappointing, really.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:38 PM   #47
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I have to quit going to the FFR site and looking at that GTM. If I keep feeding my mega-covet for that car, I will end up doing something drastic that can only result in a mountain of debt and/or divorce.

I want one... wwwAAAAAAANNNNnnnnt oooonneee...

As much stuff as is included in the base kit, I'll bet one could have them take out some items, like the seats (get some used Recaros or the like), maybe even the harness (DIY one for an aftermarket ECU instead, like an Adaptronic), light assys (fit some HIDs instead) and shave even more cost off of the build. Also, one could get a cheap(er) low-end LSx, and up the power with turboz, lots of room in the engine bay. Funk dat NA stuff.

Hell, even take out the gauges they supply and build a sweet DIY digital display that gets telemetry from the ECU.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
IIRC, 1.8 is around 375+75 lbs. so you would save about 220 lbs.
Hmmm. Now that I think about it, while a Mazdabusa might be a fun toy, it'd bump you out of any class in any race series in which you'd have the slightest hope of being competitive.



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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
The pre-1967 standard gives me an idea. There are turbo exhaust manifolds readily available for the small block Chevy.
Might work for a Can-Am, but as cramped as the GTR's engine bay is, I can't imagine any off-the-shelf exhaust part fitting.

OTOH, it goes without saying that if I were to go that direction, it will have a pair of turbochargers hanging off of it. Wouldn't matter if Mike Maiwald himself personally gave me an engine making 800 ft/lbs on pump gas in naturally aspirated trim. It would have to be de-tuned and a pair of turbos attached just on general principle.


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If only somebody was making turbo exhaust manifolds to fit my 7.6 liter Pontiac engine...
Sounds like a job for TurboTim.

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Here you go Joe. GTM in the paint shop. Pick your color. $55K
Nah. Doesn't matter how much money is saved, I'd never buy somebody else's project. SETEC Astronomy.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Heh, found a great pic at their site:



(note: if you automatically understand the joke, and laugh, you are a geek.)


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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I want one... wwwAAAAAAANNNNnnnnt oooonneee...
Yup.

Quote:
I'll bet one could have them take out some items, like the seats (get some used Recaros or the like), maybe even the harness (DIY one for an aftermarket ECU instead, like an Adaptronic), light assys (fit some HIDs instead) and shave even more cost off of the build. Also, one could get a cheap(er) low-end LSx, and up the power with turboz, lots of room in the engine bay. Funk dat NA stuff.

Hell, even take out the gauges they supply and build a sweet DIY digital display that gets telemetry from the ECU.
Also yup.

No idea what value they'd be willing to attach to those parts, or what it would take to do some customization to the order, but it'd be worth a trip to Taxachusetts to find out. I think I'd keep the seats (I think they complement the interior nicely) but you're right, the dash, the wiring harness, the lighting, all that stuff would wind up getting tossed anyway.

Still, given that the base price is only $20k to begin with, I'm not sure how much really stands to be saved. From what I gather in the forums, the transaxle is the real killer. As you up the power, they start to get stupidly expensive in a hurry. Those guys are dropping $10-$15k just on their gearbox alone. Hell, for that price I'd just say 'eff it and buy a Mendeola.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:44 PM   #50
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These look sturdy:

Chevy SBC Turbo Manifold [TM 5590] - $699.00 : Speed Track Racing, Cast-iron and steel car enhancements made to the highest standards.
And they are T3 / T4 flanges and 38mm wastegates. Yummy horsepower. Sorry, I'm stuck on my tangent.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:52 PM   #51
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Damn it, I am a geek.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:59 PM   #52
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670,616,629.3844 MPH is awful fast. I am only a semi geek, I knew what “C” stood for, but had to look up the actual speed. .
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:08 AM   #53
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meh I use 300,000 km/s
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:10 AM   #54
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186,282 miles per second. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:26 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
From what I gather in the forums, the transaxle is the real killer. As you up the power, they start to get stupidly expensive in a hurry. Those guys are dropping $10-$15k just on their gearbox alone.
Damn... That is more than I would want to spend on the entire motor WITH the turbos. Makes a Quaife gearset seem cheap in comparison. So based on your reading how much power can the stock Porsche gear box take? I guess it was not too overbuilt for the stock application, probably to save weight.

And, yeah, I admit, I am a geek, I got the C joke. I did not see that sign when I was there, pretty funny. The pictures I have seen do not do the Hale dome justice. It is freaking huge. I forget how many tons the moving dome weighs but it is massive. The telescope is a mechanical work of art. Gotta see it in person to appreciate it.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:05 AM   #56
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Damn... That is more than I would want to spend on the entire motor WITH the turbos. Makes a Quaife gearset seem cheap in comparison. So based on your reading how much power can the stock Porsche gear box take?
Well, it seems that there are about a dozen variants of the G50 (most of which are broadly interchangeable, though there are two different mounting systems) and sadly, I haven't seen a lot of factual data about the power levels that each of them can withstand- just a lot of "this one is weak, this one is strong." Here's a typical ad: High HP Transaxle kit F/S G50/52 - FFCobra.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum This guy is selling a complete G50/52 package (with clutch, shifter, cooler, etc) for $14,537 with a 12 mo warranty, to which another poster comments that it's a great deal and how he spent more than that on his.

Here's another: G50/52 for high HP application for sale - FFCobra.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum where a followup posted notes that he spent $17k on a comparable package.

Just search around the forum for "gearbox" and you'll find all sorts...


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The telescope is a mechanical work of art. Gotta see it in person to appreciate it.
Funny thing is that as many times as I've driven up that mountain, I've never seen the observatory. For that matter, I've never seen much of anything up there apart from the road, the car in front of me, the guardrail (in the spots where there is one) and the steep cliff beyond the spots where there isn't.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:13 AM   #57
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For folks who have never been, here's the sort of automotive playground that one typically finds in the north San Diego county area. And when I say "typical" I'm being totally serious. These shots are of the Palomar Mountain area which is the best known section, but there are literally hundreds and hundreds of miles of this stuff all over the place.





And to top it all off, these roads are actually in excellent condition. We don't get a lot of rain, much less freeze / thaw cycles, so the pavement is smooth and even, a lot of the turns are on-camber, and police presence, so long as you avoid certain times, is minimal at best.


Now you guys see why so many of us are willing to put up with the taxes and the CARB bullshit?
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:58 AM   #58
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Hate to disagree, but when I left San Diego 2 years ago the cops were really cracking down on Palomar. Mostly to get motorcycles, but they were using a helicopter and everything. Seems the motorcycle groups had set up their own recovery teams to help remove downed bikers without alerting the police with tow trucks, etc. causing lots of traffic problems. Palomar is nice, but not the end all be all. Way too much traffic on a weekend. I've driven lots of roads just as fun along the Blue Ridge Parkway (not just ON the Parkway, but branching off of it). I worked at a Summer camp in North Carolina. Much more secluded.

Still, it was fun to head up to Julian on a weekend though. Sunrise Hwy was my favorite.
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:31 AM   #59
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While on vacation last week, we went to the Ford museum in Detroit. Very cool place. They have an incredible array of vehicles there. One of which is the 1962 Mustang prototype/concept. Can you imagine how different the early pony car development could have been had they released it like it was designed - 2000 lbs, two seater with a 4 banger?

In any case, they also have a 90 acre area next to the museum called Ford Village. It's basically a little old 1930's town. It just so happened that they had a huge car show the weekend that we were there. Over 700 cars were there. My wife fell in love with a 61 Corvette. She said that we need to sell all of the Miatas and get one. Well, I have always been a fan of that style and said "sure, but they are kind of expensive" She said she didn't care and wanted to get one.

Fast forward a couple of days and I find one just like what she wants, in her color, fawn beige. She did choke on the asking price of $60K. Now she wants me to find a "project" one. I don't know if she understands that a $30K project vette will still end up being north of $50K at best. To be honest, even as much as I would like to have one, I can't see that kind of money for a pristine car when I live in the country and drive a mile on gravel roads to get to the nearest highway.

I'd be OK spending $30K on one or something similar, so I'm going to put a few pics of a FFR Roadster in front of her. I'd end up with a classic style roadster with better performance for less money. It will still hold it's value.

There are a lot for sale in the $25-35K range. This beautiful one was just sold in the 35K range with a turbo 4.6.

The last pic is a brandywine color with tan leather and the running gear from an 04 Cobra with 17K miles. It's still for sale for $29,500. More to the wine and cheeser look, but I could don a tweed hat and blow most anything that I come across into the weeds.
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Last edited by Stein; 07-02-2009 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:51 AM   #60
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Yeah, I can see a Cobra-style car being a real hoot. Given that they're probably the most common replicar in existence however, I don't see one fitting my needs. Same goes for all the Jag and Porsche replicas as well, to say nothing of the bevy of Ferrari and Lambo knockoffs out there. I've never understood why somebody would even bother putting all that extra weight and bling onto what, at the end of the day, is still a Pontiac Fiero...

Sidebar:

Aren't there quite a lot of Subaru guys making just silly amounts of power on their WRXs? Does anybody know what sort of actual torque numbers they're typically producing? As odd as it sounds, I've not had a lot of luck finding actual dyno sheets- just peak HP numbers and cameraphone videos of cars on the dyno.

My point being that it seems a Scooby transaxle would be a lot easier (and cheaper) to source than a G50, the layout is correct, the size is correct, and somebody's gotta make a plate to hang an SBC on one. If it's possible to build one to withstand 600-700 ft/lbs, that might be the hot ticket.
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