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Old 07-29-2014, 12:00 PM   #1
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Default Fewer and fewer men want to marry

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:18 PM   #2
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“Men are tired,” Venker wrote. “Tired of being told there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren’t happy, it’s men’s fault.”

This Venker guy must have it bad.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:35 PM   #3
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舠Men are tired,舡 Venker wrote. 舠Tired of being told there舗s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren舗t happy, it舗s men舗s fault.舡

This Venker guy must have it bad.
Venker is a woman. The original article is a good read. It's well thought out and offers an interesting perspective regardless of whether you agree with her conclusions.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:19 PM   #4
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Venker is a woman. The original article is a good read. It's well thought out and offers an interesting perspective regardless of whether you agree with her conclusions.
oh you're right. i read that quote and thought of a few buddies of mine lol
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM   #5
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There have always been a lot of women who, for whatever reason, find themselves attracted to arrogant jerks, and conclude that there are no good men.

There have always been a lot of men who, for whatever reason, find themselves attracted to bitchy, emotionally-abusive women, and conclude that there are no good women.

Neither of these conclusions are a valid basis for making broad observations that marriage, as an institution, is dying. Over time, the distribution of all measurable social and demographic phenomena tend to drift around in pseudo-random ways. As with stock-picking, past performance is not a guarantee of future results.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:29 PM   #6
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I'm constantly surprised by the "strong" women portrayed in media. Something many of them seem to miss is that you don't have to be a bitch to be independent. Being an ******* - for both men and women - is portrayed as how you get ahead these days.

Not the recipe for a good marriage, IMO.
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:27 PM   #7
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This actually is not the article I thought it was originally. There is another one on the same topic also written by a woman that had a lot more starts and research involved. The author also went out and actually talked to men about it and used their general sentiments in the article as well. It was a lot better than this one and sounded a lot less 1950s.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:34 PM   #8
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Discuss.
A bad article published on a bad website.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:48 PM   #9
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A lot of these over-generalizations would be ignored if people would take a good hard look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are the person their dream-spouse would choose to be with for the rest of their lives. Upon answering that honestly, a lot of people would either get better at being single or make an effort to not suck.

People wait longer to get married because for one thing women typically expect to have careers now. They don't think they need a man to provide for them. And that eliminates a lot of the push to get married from the relationship equation in the early 20s for many couples.

Combine that with a prevalent and not unjustified perception that life is not going to just automatically get better for each successive generation, and you have people who are financially independent and not in a hurry to have kids. Less marriage.

Personally I cant even imagine having a kid. I don't make enough cash, I don't have enough time, I don't have enough patience. Lots of us are in that boat. And people recognizing that a family is a huge commitment and deciding to hold off/not have one is a good thing.

Not to say that lots of women aren't over-entitled comfort seekers who think a healthy relationship is some guy constantly struggling to make them happy. Many are. But if the other factors were not present, those bitches and their manipulative boyfriends would certainly be getting hitched and starting miserable dysfunctional families despite the issues highlighted in the article.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:35 AM   #10
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:20 AM   #11
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For a short period of time a couple years ago, I had a profile on match.com. One of my written requirements were that I have no time for feminists. It's unfortunate though, that an extremely disproportionate number of women on dating sites are indeed feminist by the very nature of a dating site.

I've spent several years studying the roles and relationships of men and women as a sort of a self-developmental hobby. Unfortunately, feminism is, without a doubt, changing the landscape, at a rate that Mt. Pompeii could be proud of.

There is no doubt in my mind that the average man has increasingly become less manly in very recent history (last 20-30 years). Surface reasons are self-entitlement, selfishness, and lack of motivation. All of those are branches of the core reason - childishness - childishness that probably stems from a society that fails to teach little boys to grow up to be men. Unfortunately, it's a chicken or the egg thing... I believe that single moms are the primary contributor to the problem for a host of reasons. It seems to me that grown-boys (not "grown-men") are probably 30-40% of the problem.

Just like men are becoming less manly, women are becoming less womanly. They too are becoming more childish, but at a seemingly slower rate. It seems like a slower rate because by nature, normal women carry some "childish" traits into adulthood which enhance their "womanliness", such as a strong desire for manly approval. The larger issue with women is definitely the feminism, which teaches women to be more "manly", or less childish. It teaches them that they don't need manly approval, and it teaches them to support themselves, which is a whole chicken-or-the-egg downward economic spiral in itself. The end result is that women end up less happy and more independent, both of which reinforce each other (a less happy women is driven to be more independent and, by second order effects, vice-versa is also true). Unfortunately sadness and independence are both inversely proportional to success rates in long term relationships. When a woman decides "I'm *still* not happy, and I don't need him", that's the end of the relationship.

After all, a normal or "real" woman, as I would call her, really only *needs* one thing in life: to be happy. The saying "happy wife, happy life" has some real psychological merit to it. A manly man has no problem teaching his wife to be happy and keeping his wife happy (unless she's a feminist, of course), but a childish man will be the common denominator of countless failed relationships; he might be able to make his wife happy, but he'll never be able to *keep* his wife happy - it's far too much work for him.

A manly man only *really* needs one thing in a relationship: A womanly woman. She'll throw fits at times, she'll never be able to make up her mind on anything, and she'll be a pain in the *** at times, but those times are little more than a minor annoyance because he makes her happy in the grand scheme of things, and she'll follow him to the ends of the earth, "loving and obeying" all the way there. Just like the childish man, the feminist woman will be the common denominator to her own misery, but she won't see nearly as many failed relationships, because she won't find many relationships (if any) at which to fail.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:23 AM   #12
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This is a trend that is well documented. The MGTOW community is sort of like... well its the guys who feel this way 110%. It stands for Men Going Their Own Way. In my generation here, 30% of my male peers have committed to never getting married.

There is only a tiny tiny chance that marriage will work out as a net positive over a lifespan for a man getting married in this era, and men have realized.

This topic goes into a huge long winded direction regarding the disposable nature of men in our society, whether or not it really is a mans world, and a whole bunch of socio political topics.

Dann

EDIT: Fooger. Ill try and find some pictures I used to have on my old pc with straight forward explanations of why the older men will NEVER inherently understand what its like to be a man born after 1985ish. Basically though, the manliness that your generation was proud of is something to be ashamed of now. Its wrong, overbearing, sexist, and brutish to be a mans man in 2014. Your generation (assuming you are 50+ here) is full of peers including women who appreciate your manliness for what it is, where as a young man my age is considered a pig by society my age for acting like you would.

Last edited by nitrodann; 07-30-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
This topic goes into a huge long winded direction regarding the disposable nature of men in our society, whether or not it really is a mans world, and a whole bunch of socio political topics.

Dann
Relevant:


Serious question: Fooger, roughly how old are you? In which decade were you born? Your viewpoint is incredibly old school and conservative so I assume you are either in your late 40's or early 50's.

Last edited by Ryan_G; 07-30-2014 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:35 AM   #14
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Karen is the ******* MAN.

EDIT 2: Im 24, how old are you Ryan? Knowing the age of participants in this thread will be super telling as to how the world has changed in its attitude toward men.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 07-30-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post

There is no doubt in my mind that the average man has increasingly become less manly in very recent history (last 20-30 years). Surface reasons are self-entitlement, selfishness, and lack of motivation. All of those are branches of the core reason - childishness - childishness that probably stems from a society that fails to teach little boys to grow up to be men. Unfortunately, it's a chicken or the egg thing... I believe that single moms are the primary contributor to the problem for a host of reasons. It seems to me that grown-boys (not "grown-men") are probably 30-40% of the problem.

Just like men are becoming less manly, women are becoming less womanly. They too are becoming more childish, but at a seemingly slower rate. It seems like a slower rate because by nature, normal women carry some "childish" traits into adulthood which enhance their "womanliness", such as a strong desire for manly approval. The larger issue with women is definitely the feminism, which teaches women to be more "manly", or less childish. It teaches them that they don't need manly approval, and it teaches them to support themselves, which is a whole chicken-or-the-egg downward economic spiral in itself. The end result is that women end up less happy and more independent, both of which reinforce each other (a less happy women is driven to be more independent and, by second order effects, vice-versa is also true). Unfortunately sadness and independence are both inversely proportional to success rates in long term relationships. When a woman decides "I'm *still* not happy, and I don't need him", that's the end of the relationship.

After all, a normal or "real" woman, as I would call her, really only *needs* one thing in life: to be happy. The saying "happy wife, happy life" has some real psychological merit to it. A manly man has no problem teaching his wife to be happy and keeping his wife happy (unless she's a feminist, of course), but a childish man will be the common denominator of countless failed relationships; he might be able to make his wife happy, but he'll never be able to *keep* his wife happy - it's far too much work for him.

A manly man only *really* needs one thing in a relationship: A womanly woman. She'll throw fits at times, she'll never be able to make up her mind on anything, and she'll be a pain in the *** at times, but those times are little more than a minor annoyance because he makes her happy in the grand scheme of things, and she'll follow him to the ends of the earth, "loving and obeying" all the way there. Just like the childish man, the feminist woman will be the common denominator to her own misery, but she won't see nearly as many failed relationships, because she won't find many relationships (if any) at which to fail.



I am not sure if what you are getting at is the break down of the family but I believe that has a large role as "boys" do not see positive male influences in their lives and little girls learn to "not trust men" (who do not act like real men should)

(age 33)
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:00 AM   #16
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I am also 24 years old.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:01 AM   #17
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Socialism, the encouragement of single motherhood, plays a big part of what you are saying, I believe. Aimed at Pitlabs point about no positive rolemodels.

Here let me post this response to a similar topic posted by an anon right now on 4chan.

"What girls are taught:
"You're awesome and beautiful and brimming with intrinsic value! Little boys can't hit you! If you're pretty, you'll get everything you want for free! If you're not pretty, people are wrong!" all the while seeing that girls are magic, women are heroes, moms are intelligent and capable
What little boys are taught:
"Suck it up kid! Man up! Stop crying!" all the while they're seeing men being scolded and/or abused by their wives, dads in cartoons are idiots, every bad guy is male and the more masculine they are (muscular, bearded, etc) the more evil they are.

On top of all that, you throw in an educational system that's proven to be counterproductive to male learning and an utter lack of positive male role models and proper values to look up to, you arrive at an entire generation of men who are emasculated and have no proper male identity."

Dann
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #18
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GOT IT.

This is the one I was looking for.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #19
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FWIW - I'm 58, lucky to be happily married to a non-judgmental wife.

My free pop-psych take is this -

As a white American male, I(and I gather most of you) seem to be responsible for the lions' share of all that is wrong with the world. If I were single nowadays, I would be in no hurry to sign up for life with someone who shares that belief. This disqualifies a big percentage of modern women.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
EDIT: Fooger. Ill try and find some pictures I used to have on my old pc with straight forward explanations of why the older men will NEVER inherently understand what its like to be a man born after 1985ish. Basically though, the manliness that your generation was proud of is something to be ashamed of now. Its wrong, overbearing, sexist, and brutish to be a mans man in 2014. Your generation (assuming you are 50+ here) is full of peers including women who appreciate your manliness for what it is, where as a young man my age is considered a pig by society my age for acting like you would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
Relevant:
Serious question: Fooger, roughly how old are you? In which decade were you born? Your viewpoint is incredibly old school and conservative so I assume you are either in your late 40's or early 50's.
I am 2 months over 30. Somewhere in my mid twenties, when things weren't working out so well for me in the relationship department, I decided that what I had been taught about gender roles and relationships was complete and utter bullshit. Through high-school and college I had always put women on a pedestel, and treated them as such. Don't get me wrong, I love and highly respect women to this very day - a woman is a valuable but fragile creature. Once I disposed of the "socially correct" notions which had been brainwashed with for 2 and a half decades - things suddenly became...easy? Before that, I had been with two women that were absolutely marriageable in every conceivable way - these were the type of women that generally find a guy in high school, and they literally get married out of high school and live happily ever after. I lost those two because i didn't understand. I also had a short run in with a feminist and a horse bitch (Never again; "horse bitches be cray").

My "wife" (fiancee) is 31. Wildly successful in business, but with some very childish traits. 5-10 Years ago, she wouldn't have scoffed at the idea of dating someone like me; it simply wouldn't have happened. I would have given up too much to make her happy, and I wouldn't have kept her respect. When we started "dating", I intentionally never brought up the concept of "going on a date". It's bad form to pass that idea through the logic processing center of a woman's brain. Similarly I never asked her to move in, I simply helped whenever she wanted to bring some stuff over. Occasionally she actually would, by her own thoughts, logically process that she was in a relationship and she was living with me. She would "break up with my house" and panic about how she needed to take all her stuff back to her apartment. I helped her load some stuff into her car so she could take it home that night. I never argued with her, manly men don't argue with women, it's childish - besides, I didn't need to argue with her; I made her happy. All in all, she "broke up with my house" no fewer than 4 times over 2-3 months, and during those 4 "break-ups", none lasted longer than 12 hours, and she never spent a single night away - every single time, she would call me and ask me if she could come over before the end of the day - twice while she was at work. That says something about the power of a manly man and a happy woman.

The whole process - dating without the logic center, letting her leave, etc. was the process of teaching her to be happy - It taught her that she was allowed to be happy, and that there are no repercussions of staying happy.

Today, she comes home from work angry/sad/depressed/etc. from time to time, and she'll yell and scream at the end of a long day every once in awhile, but she knows that she can yell and scream to me without me getting upset, as long as she isn't yelling and screaming at me. A more childish man probably would likely misinterpret this post-work anger as a personal attack, and might even start yelling and screaming back. She MUST be allowed to yell and scream to you, if you don't allow her to do that, then you are not her rock. If you are not her rock, she'll find another person who is. If you're lucky, this other person will not be a man. All women are crazy and yell and scream and make bad decisions sometime. You don't have to like this fact, but you must accept it.

She knows that if she has an issue with me and starts yelling and screaming at me, I'm just going to sit there staring at her like she's a drunk idiot, and she will accomplish nothing. She knows that yelling and screaming at me will net her zero results, ever. When she wants to have a humble two-way conversation over the issue, only then will she get results. In return for refusing to be yelled at, I get complete and absolute respect.

Before I taught her to be happy, she had quite a few feminist qualities. The need to feel independent was strong. After college she left everything behind and moved to chicago for several years - a sure sign of independence. She was educated, successful, unhappy, and in her late twenties, she was giving up on men. Her budding feminism, though, had one critical flaw: she still had a small need for manly approval.

For anyone needing some encouragement, man up and watch some black and white romance movies from before the feminist movement. Find the strong male figures and use them as role models. I highly recommend casablanca.
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