Notices
Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Look ma, no cams!

Old Jun 25, 2009 | 01:46 PM
  #1  
Joe Perez's Avatar
Thread Starter
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 34,402
Total Cats: 7,523
From: Chicago. (The less-murder part.)
Default Look ma, no cams!

This is kind of interesting, actually. A fellow is building small four-cycle gasoline engines that use electrical solenoids to operate the valves. The idea is to permit valve timing to be completely variable. And he actually powers his R/C airplanes with them.

EVIC Engine Home Page
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 01:51 PM
  #2  
The_Pipefather's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 854
Total Cats: 15
From: Troy, MI
Default

Ducati or some other italian motorcycle maker was playing with this several years ago. It never took off because of the RPM limitation associated with not having a positive mechanical device actuating the valves. They had valve float at 6000 or some ridiculously low rpm.


EDIT:

Here you go, from the horse's mouth:

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/techcafe...=faq#question2
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 01:53 PM
  #3  
hustler's Avatar
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 29,085
Total Cats: 375
From: Republic of Dallas
Default

that is really cool.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 02:52 PM
  #4  
04 Miata's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 159
Total Cats: 0
From: Charleston, S.C.
Default

Aren't some of the F1 engines run this way with either hydraulic or pneumatic actuators?
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:17 PM
  #5  
neogenesis2004's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,413
Total Cats: 20
Default

pneumatic is the future, along with direct injection fuel
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:35 PM
  #6  
messiahx's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 956
Total Cats: 7
From: Shalimar, FL
Default

That is really awesome. I wonder if the technology can be used on a larger displacement engine to drive a scooter or mower.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:35 PM
  #7  
Savington's Avatar
Former Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Default

Originally Posted by 04 Miata
Aren't some of the F1 engines run this way with either hydraulic or pneumatic actuators?
I believe it's pneumatic, although I could be wrong. Mechanical valvetrains give up around 14k.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:35 PM
  #8  
BradC's Avatar
Junior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 458
Total Cats: 3
From: Lansdale, PA
Default

BMW started ******* with this way back in '03

A Chip-Based Challenge to a Car's Spinning Camshaft - The New York Times
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:45 PM
  #9  
Joe Perez's Avatar
Thread Starter
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 34,402
Total Cats: 7,523
From: Chicago. (The less-murder part.)
Default

F1 engines don't need valves. They use a compact cyclotron to accelerate the fuel and air up to the speed of light and then deposit them directly into the chamber.

Seriously though, I've wondered about this pretty much since I first learned how an engine works. Granted, it would take a fairly large, high-power solenoid to get the job done on a modern engine, but I don't see why cycle time or speed of operation would be limitations. After all, a fuel injector is just a tiny solenoid, and on direct-injection engines they're working pretty damn fast.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 03:55 PM
  #10  
TrickerZ's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Total Cats: 21
From: Cocoa Beach, FL
Default

fuel injector doesn't have to move anywhere near as far.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 04:06 PM
  #11  
neogenesis2004's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,413
Total Cats: 20
Default

Or have anywhere near the mass it has to move. A valve head and stem must have at least 100x the mass of the pintle in an injector. Imagine a solenoid enlarged at the same rate of the pintle until the pintle is as large as a valve. You have a HUGE solenoid then.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 04:24 PM
  #12  
Joe Perez's Avatar
Thread Starter
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 34,402
Total Cats: 7,523
From: Chicago. (The less-murder part.)
Default

Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?

Seriously- BMW has the right idea. Increase the voltage = increase the field intensity for a given current. You wouldn't have to convert the whole vehicle to a 42 volt electrical system to do it, either. A boost-mode switching power supply could produce 100 volts to drive the solenoids easily and efficiently.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 04:41 PM
  #13  
pdexta's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,954
Total Cats: 184
From: Knoxville, TN
Default

Very interesting concept. I'm kind of surprised no one has figured it out before, seems like it would make for some decent power/efficiency gains once it's perfected. Now how are they going to integrate that into tuning software? Haha. I guess we're going to have a couple more maps to figure out.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 04:57 PM
  #14  
JasonC SBB's Avatar
Elite Member
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,420
Total Cats: 84
Default

F1 use PNEUMATIC SPRINGS, but still use cams to open the valves.

BMW's valvetronic and Nissan's copycat system have CONTINUOUSLY variable lift and timing.

It's here now, guys. No need for electric actuators. These systems also don't need a throttle butterfly (other than for transients and ensuing emissions).
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 05:40 PM
  #15  
Qckslvr's Avatar
Junior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 445
Total Cats: 1
From: Salinas, CA
Default

Detroit Diesel is planning to release a camless engine in 2010. It is on the road in real world testing right now. It is a modified Series 60
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 05:46 PM
  #16  
neogenesis2004's Avatar
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,413
Total Cats: 20
Default

I was looking into it more and Joe is correct on the electronic valves. Looks like Renault is reported to be testing solenoid controlled valves in order to eliminate camshafts completely. Probably will trickle down into production cars in the next decade.

The #1 thing that will be tough for it in getting used in commercially available automobiles will be long term reliability. They will need to operate in the 300-400def F range for a couple hundred thousand miles. And yes cyclically operating parts in the cylinder head to reach those continuous temps.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 06:07 PM
  #17  
y8s's Avatar
y8s
DEI liberal femininity
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,338
Total Cats: 574
From: Fake Virginia
Default

**** valves, just install REALLY BIG air injectors.

and I guess ejectors.
Old Jun 25, 2009 | 07:12 PM
  #18  
eunos1800's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 197
Total Cats: 0
From: Athens
Default

Lotus have had a hydraulically operated engine valve lift running for a few years.
I seem to remember the biggest obstacle was weight and the prices of the actuators (around 20k )

View Item : » Managed Content » Lotus

More details here as well.
Lotus leads way with clean engine - News - The Engineer


Cheers
Mark
Old Jun 26, 2009 | 01:47 AM
  #19  
JasonC SBB's Avatar
Elite Member
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,420
Total Cats: 84
Default

AutoZine Technical School - ENGINE
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Full_Tilt_Boogie
Build Threads
84
Apr 12, 2021 04:21 PM
StratoBlue1109
Miata parts for sale/trade
7
Sep 24, 2015 03:50 PM
Der_Idiot
Engine Performance
14
Sep 16, 2015 09:30 PM
AlwaysBroken
Engine Performance
4
Sep 4, 2015 01:35 PM
Der_Idiot
Engine Performance
12
Sep 3, 2015 03:31 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:31 PM.