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Old 10-21-2009, 05:38 PM   #81
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I think I would be more accepting to Christianity if they would update their **** so that it actually made sense in the 21st century. I understand a lot of it is universal, but also a lot of it doesn't work in the modern world. Same goes for our constitution, but thats another can of worms. Something that inflexible just doesn't make sense over time.
I don't do organized religion. I'm Catholic but have left that behind to pursue greater things like drinking, *******, lying and cheating.

However I think the very nature of organized religion is to be inflexible. Most (all?) religions believe that there dogma is based on the actual word of god. So unless god sends out a press release, why would the core fundamental beliefs change? The 10 commandments were not written on an etch-a-sketch. I think the catholic church is a prime example of how being flexible will ultimately be its undoing. You think the Jews will just decide to say, **** it eat pork since it is healthier than beef? Um no.

The idea that you have to 100% believe is retarded, faith just isn't like that. There are lots of things in life I can't prove or don't have the education to understand that I believe in. You can't approach religion with logic, christians often say things like "giving yourself to christ". What does that really mean? Putting doubt aside and accepting even though you have no "proof". Think of it as part of your membership agreement. I think that this sort of thing as always being a work in progress. Basically god is saying to you that to be part of the club you just have to put doubt aside and believe. Otherwise if you don't, GTFO. You can't prove something doesn't exist right? And if you have faith, you won't need the proof. But you can't expect to get it with out years of learning about it, and understanding. You can't fill the "hole" with only one shovel full. A life time of them is necessary.

I understand the concept and why some people need it and how it makes them happy. I'm personally too lazy to have the kind of faith required to be a true believer, it takes work to stick to your convictions.

Ramble ramble ramble.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:39 PM   #82
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Can you distinguish between extremely rare coincidence and a miracle?
That has always been a major sticking point for me with organized Christian religions. If God protects or heals one person and it's a miracle what is it when another person isn't protected or healed. They didn't have faith? That clearly isn't true. The vast majority of the faithful are injured, get sick, die, just like the rest of humanity. It's usually covered by "it's just God's will" or "we can't understand his ways". How then do perceived miraculous happenings to non believers, people of other (obviously satanic) religions, etc. get explained? Part of his great plan?

This is part of why I'm agnostic. If there is a higher power we don't or can't know what it's all about. If we have a soul, awesome, I get to carry on somehow. If we don't? I'm dead, I won't care. I just hope if I'm reincarnated I don't come back as Hustler's dog. I do not need to see what goes on in that bedroom.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:53 PM   #83
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Most of my beliefs are not stemmed from my religion, but rather from life experience and personally experiencing the effects of bad choices. There was a time in my past when I allowed myself to make bad choices and it reflected in my life. Now I try to make conscious good choices that will lead me to a better place in society and the next life. A lot of religious beliefs are supported by science, things such as tobacco and alcohol being bad for you, and the consequences of sleeping around. My faith is also partially based on my past experiences and the hope for a better future.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:59 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by cueball1 View Post
You know this thread was going OK. Toddcod and Zoomin jump in with very religious statements, preachy, mention healing, etc and the whole tone of the thread changed. Suddenly the haters come out to balance and counterpoint those statements. Unfortunately where religion is involved any counterpoints can only be seen as insulting.

Again, seeing Toddcod & Zoomin's statements have only reinforced my belief it is OK to have faith but the dogma and trappings of organized religion sucks.

Politics and religion are both futile to discuss on an open forum like this. No minds will be changed, people only dig in harder.
And apparently your reading comprehension is lacking a bit as well, as I never sounded "preachy". I simply shared an experience and offered advice.

The old saying still rings true, "A man who stands for nothing, will fall for anything."
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:23 PM   #85
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Most of my beliefs are not stemmed from my religion, but rather from life experience and personally experiencing the effects of bad choices. There was a time in my past when I allowed myself to make bad choices and it reflected in my life. Now I try to make conscious good choices that will lead me to a better place in society and the next life. A lot of religious beliefs are supported by science, things such as tobacco and alcohol being bad for you, and the consequences of sleeping around. My faith is also partially based on my past experiences and the hope for a better future.
Excess is bad for you. Beer is not.

Whether you admit it or not, your current belief structure is rooted in your religious affiliation. That can be current or when you were a kid through your parents. You were brought up mormon, so the ground work was laid back then for your current morals and values.

The laws of man and god often align. The reason for this is that human beings wrote both.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:24 PM   #86
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Still waiting for someone of faith to watch these and comment on them. I'd really like to hear what they have to say.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:29 PM   #87
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NA6C, all I have to say is to go find a quiet place away from distractions, then get down on your knees and pray for answers. Even if you aren't sure of how to pray, just talk to God and pour out your heart to Him, even if your innermost thoughts bring you to tears. He may not answer right away, but He will answer. I don't have perfect faith, but I try to live a good life with every day that He gives me.

Here is His most recent reminder that He exists and protects me. .

Only someone religious would not perceive this as "preachy". It is full of church jargon. You would never use the phrasing and terminology in these statements in every day life outside of a church setting.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:13 PM   #88
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Since everyone is giving their .02 I'll chime in and give mine...I'm not trying to preach my way of life, however these are things that have been mentioned in our book and they are things to ponder upon.

I haven't read the whole thread, I've skimmed through it and people are talking about miracles and coincidence, etc..

Well, isn't it amazing how the Human is perfected in the darkness of the womb of the mother... What starts out as a clot of blood, from it forms the thick hard skull, the soft smooth skin, the eyes with which we are able to see, the ears from which we are able to hear, the brain with which we are able to think and perceive...all from a simple drop...Where in that drop were the eyes, ears, mouth, of the human?

How about the food we eat? Its the same soil that the seeds are planted in, and the soil itself has no flavor or color, however from the same soil, are produced some fruits which are red, others which are orange, some are big, some are small, some are sweet, some are sour, some are soft, others are hard...whose doing is all of this? Its not mere coincidence that things just magically happen..and it certainly isn't in our hands either.
It is all the workings of the One True God..AKA Allah..

How about the rain? Funny that the clouds can pour THOUSANDS of gallons of water, but still FLOAT in the sky??...no strings attached?

Read The Quran and take a look for yourself...its all very obvious and practical and reasonable to understand..its not rocket science..lol

Hope I didn't offend anyone, I know our way of life has gotten a bad rep in the media as of late..
Nomie
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by NoMiEzMX-5 View Post
Since everyone is giving their .02 I'll chime in and give mine...I'm not trying to preach my way of life, however these are things that have been mentioned in our book and they are things to ponder upon.

I haven't read the whole thread, I've skimmed through it and people are talking about miracles and coincidence, etc..

Well, isn't it amazing how the Human is perfected in the darkness of the womb of the mother... What starts out as a clot of blood, from it forms the thick hard skull, the soft smooth skin, the eyes with which we are able to see, the ears from which we are able to hear, the brain with which we are able to think and perceive...all from a simple drop...Where in that drop were the eyes, ears, mouth, of the human?

How about the food we eat? Its the same soil that the seeds are planted in, and the soil itself has no flavor or color, however from the same soil, are produced some fruits which are red, others which are orange, some are big, some are small, some are sweet, some are sour, some are soft, others are hard...whose doing is all of this? Its not mere coincidence that things just magically happen..and it certainly isn't in our hands either.
It is all the workings of the One True God..AKA Allah..

How about the rain? Funny that the clouds can pour THOUSANDS of gallons of water, but still FLOAT in the sky??...no strings attached?

Read The Quran and take a look for yourself...its all very obvious and practical and reasonable to understand..its not rocket science..lol

Hope I didn't offend anyone, I know our way of life has gotten a bad rep in the media as of late..
Nomie
there are things that everyone understands.

there are things that few people dont understand and many people do.

there are things that half of people understand and half do not.

there are things that most people dont understand and few do.

there are things that nobody understands.


Is ignorance really the defining factor in belief in (a) god?
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:49 PM   #90
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I don't understand how what I wrote is a sign of ignorance?? It seems that we have things so easy that we take stuff like I mentioned for granted..

But please, explain yourself some more..

Nomie
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #91
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I meant that just because you (anyone) doesn't understand a complex system, doesn't mean it was created by a diety.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:08 PM   #92
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:14 PM   #93
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I meant that just because you (anyone) doesn't understand a complex system, doesn't mean it was created by a diety.
I won't argue against you because you are right. Heck, in the opening verses(3rd verse) of the book it says that:

Verse 2:2
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God

Verse 2:3
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

So one of the first criteria is to believe in the unseen, which may also include I believe in this context stuff which we may not understand.

So yeah, your right in a way..

Nomie
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:23 PM   #94
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NoMi,

Isn't it also amazing that most of the worlds religions started the middle east and southeast asia? Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Hindi. Many others started there but have died out over the centuries. It is also an area that has been pretty much at a state of war for a few thousand years. It could easily be said that the middle east is the world center of fanaticism.

Apparently sand and heat make people a little crazy.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:45 AM   #95
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Apparently sand and heat make people a little crazy.
If they just had habanero peppers and tequila they'd be a lot more easy going...

And to be more accurate, religions existed everywhere there were people. The fact that most of the major trade routes in the last 2500 years went through the middle east and southern Asia allowed exponentially greater exposure for some religious ideas than others. People traded extensively in both goods and ideas. There is nothing unusual about the area or it's people other than it's relative location.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:08 AM   #96
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Well, I'm not going to sit here an argue about what people have done right or wrong in the name of their respective faiths. You cannot blame the foolishness of man for not properly adhering to the law of his faith, you just can't. I'm sure no faiths in the world encourage the murder of mankind. Anyways, I digress..

Its just disappointing to me that we overlook such miracles of life and shove them aside like they have nothing to do with us, or rather that we are already in such control of everything that the little stuff just doesn't matter?

Another thing to note is the sleep/work cycles of this human. We as human beings need time for rest. Yet there are other times of the day when we are working. Do you think that its just that much of a coincidence that the world around us, this earth that we inhibit, also enters this standby/shutdown mode for approximately the same number of hours that a human being needs rest?

If the orbit of the earth was any different, or if the speed at which the earth rotates was ANY different, life as we know it wouldn't be able to exist. I don't want to go into details, but if night was too long, then the temps would drop to such an extent that life wouldn't be able to survive, the same with too much daylight and sun, etc..Do you think that such a balance is just a coincidence? No way...I mean..you've gotta think with an open mind, its common sense really!! if you don't then you're only fooling yourself.

And with us, (muslims) this life is merely a test. If everything was so apparently clear, then what would be the test? That's why there's the element of belief. The stronger that your belief is in the criteria that I stated above, the stronger your faith.

One last thing.. Islam didn't come to teach anything DIFFERENT than Judaism or Christianity, rather it preaches the same Oneness of God, which is what the core belief of Islam really is...I don't want to go into details unless someone is really interested..lol.

Nomie

Last edited by NoMiEzMX-5; 10-22-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:04 AM   #97
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Nomie, go post your theist arguments in the other thread please, as the OP stated this thread is not the one to spout off in.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:07 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by NoMiEzMX-5 View Post
Another thing to note is the sleep/work cycles of this human. We as human beings need time for rest. Yet there are other times of the day when we are working. Do you think that its just that much of a coincidence that the world around us, this earth that we inhibit, also enters this standby/shutdown mode for approximately the same number of hours that a human being needs rest?
Go visit the north or south pole in winter or summer.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:40 AM   #99
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Go visit the north or south pole in winter or summer.
But where did people originate, "natural habitat".
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:54 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Go visit the north or south pole in winter or summer.
You beat me to it.

Nomie, you need to read some science books. Everything you've stated has been explained in detail. I've glanced over the Qur'an before and don't remember seeing anything that completely defies science.
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