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Old 11-21-2014, 11:47 AM   #1
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Default Indianapolis dyno day.

I am contemplating the idea of renting a loading dyno close to Indianapolis (www.fathousefab.com)'s dyno in late February/early March (after tax refunds) and hiring a knowledgeable member from this forum to fly out to Indy and help us tune a few Miatas.

Nothing is written on stone as of now, but I would like to know who would be interested on something like this. This would not just be a dyno pull but an actual tune.

I can either rent the dyno for one day or 2 days depending on how many people are interested and the tuner's availability. I have not finalized the details with the tuner but I believe he could tune each car in around 2-3 hours.

My idea would be to have between 4 and 5 cars a day. Hhammerly and my car are included in this equation. If we rent the dyno for 1 day we would need only 2 or 3 more people committed.

If I get enough interest and we can work the details out, I would secure your spot after sending me a non refundable deposit, after all I have to make sure I cover dyno rental and tuner costs if you don't show up. I have a limited number of spots (max 8-10 cars if we rent it for 2 days).

I will keep talking to the tuner during the next few days and if he gives me the ok, I'll reveal his name. I will also post prices for the tunes.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:05 PM   #2
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Possibly interested. If the Miata is still around, definitely interested.

If it's not, i might want to show up anyways if the MX6 is done to get a tune roughed in myself.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:15 PM   #3
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Sounds good. I have a guy from Fort Wayne running microsquirt on his sts Miata interested too.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:51 PM   #4
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I'd be interested. Indy isn't too long of a drive.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:14 PM   #5
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I'd be interested but I'd like to know who the tuner is and what it'll cost. I'm assuming these sessions would just be tuning for power runs?

Chiburbian, I'd split a hotel room with ya. Indy aint too far of a drive.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:18 PM   #6
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I have to talk to the tuner and find out exactly what he plans on tuning. I was thinking about timing and maybe a little accel enrichments, but accel enrichments should be pretty close to perfect on a street tune. I know Harold wants a e85 and 93 octane map, but that is probably going to cost extra.
I will price out the options as soon as the tuner gets back to me.
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Old 11-21-2014, 05:46 PM   #7
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To me the things I am most interested in are in order:
Closed loop idle with A/C
Closed Loop Boost Control
Closed Loop EGO
Spark Map
Accel Enrich
Ensure Knock Sensor is working properly

As you can see, some of this doesn't even need a dyno and may be able to be done in a parking lot with multiple people working on their own idles with the "tuner" going car to car helping with adjustments. Classroom style...
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Old 11-21-2014, 06:41 PM   #8
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Maybe we should street tune on a Saturday and dyno the next day on a Sunday. I am still waiting to hear from the tuner, once he pm's me Ill get back to you.

I as well need a tune for better driveability, not so much making tons of power.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:14 PM   #9
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It may be difficult to street tune turbo miatas that time of the year, you never know how much snow and ice will be on the roads, looking back at when i got the car running early this year, i could hardly touch the trottle without spinning the tires, and i can't even fit my snow tires now with the brakes that are on the car; He can probabby do one idle tune during each dyno car change...
Another thing that may be helpfull would be to send him each cars tune a log and build sheet so he can take a look at potential trouble spots like knock control idle settings etc. before he gets here.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHammerly View Post
It may be difficult to street tune turbo miatas that time of the year, you never know how much snow and ice will be on the roads, looking back at when i got the car running early this year, i could hardly touch the trottle without spinning the tires, and i can't even fit my snow tires now with the brakes that are on the car; He can probabby do one idle tune during each dyno car change...
Another thing that may be helpfull would be to send him each cars tune a log and build sheet so he can take a look at potential trouble spots like knock control idle settings etc. before he gets here.

Yep, depends on what sort of winter we get. Could be 80 degrees that day!

Ask Braian what traction was like for me the other day... That right there is why i parked the car.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:38 AM   #11
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Bros,
I didn't check my PMs for a while, but I'm here and listening, potentially interested in helping out. I'm a little rusty but planning to tune about 5 cars here in December, so that will get me back up to speed. I should also note, I know how to work an MD-240, I do not really know how to work a modern Dynojet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
To me the things I am most interested in are in order:
Closed loop idle with A/C
Closed Loop Boost Control
Closed Loop EGO
Spark Map
Accel Enrich
Ensure Knock Sensor is working properly

As you can see, some of this doesn't even need a dyno and may be able to be done in a parking lot with multiple people working on their own idles with the "tuner" going car to car helping with adjustments. Classroom style...
Closed-loop idle with AC: I've never really been happy with my idle tunes, especially with a light flywheel. However, I was able to get every car I tuned to idle reasonably well and not die in traffic.
Closed-loop boost control: I've never jacked with this, but it should be pretty easy to get right. The last few times I jacked with this, it was "not ready" in terms of development, MAT corrections were way off.
Closed-loop EGO: No problem, super-easy
E85/93: how are you switching fuel sources?
Spark: This is what takes most of the time.
Accel: TPS based is easy-breezy, EAE takes time but worth it.
Knock: Depending on your hardware, knock doesn't work to well in my experience unless it's changed dramatically in the last 12 months. You'll find that a ton of tuners shockingly tune off knock sensor readings, which I think is preposterous. I use electronic det-cans religiously. You'll find that many tuners put these cars near detonation or on it and let the OEM knock-sensors pull spark angle, which is something I'm not cool with because our knock systems are a bit archaic and frankly, that's not the way OEM nor the way real racecars are tuned. With det-cans you can hear the engine rhythm and can pick-up on syncopated-rhythm before it turns-into knock (typically this means uneven flame propagation, different from the more desirable turbulent flame-front).

In general, NA cars with fixed cams are super easy and fast to tune, less than an hour. FI cars are fairly straight forward as well, but there is a lot more stress involved because things go "bang" a lot easier; please tell me you guys went with lower-static compression builds. VVT tunes are either super-easy or super difficult, dear god please tell me you guys are on MS3x and not using VVTuner for VVT control.

Are all you guys at 250whp and above on 6-speeds? Dyno tuning with load is really, really hard on transmissions and I come from the school of thought where the exhaust glows yellow, for a while before I send you off with the car.

I'll let Btabor go from here and discuss the money stuff. I want to get a fair price that makes everyone happy, gets a bunch of cars tuned, yet still cover my travel expense and make it worth the trip and worth the stress involved. I'll teach you guys everything I know. You can rest assured that I'll get your car off the dyno and it will be ready for HARD track use, 6th gear on the backstretch at Mid-Ohio with an orange turbo lap after lap. You may have to jack with the idle/AC value in the summer, maybe the closed-loop idle tune as well.

-Trey

Can I get a list of each car's computer, aspiration type (note VVT), and target whp?
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:05 AM   #12
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Also, Stars > Blue Jackets
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:22 AM   #13
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I'm a tentative.

Car is a 95
Brain-built DIYPNP w/ GSlender stuff, VICS, EBC, etc
9.0:1 forged *****, BP4W head
Currently running on 95 triggers, trying to update to proper NB1 stuff beforehand
5spd
Target whp: Everything the little 2554 can give. Everywhere. Looking for a rally-style EBC spike/taper tune. If the 2554 can do 250cfm, i want that 250cfm from 2000rpm to 7500rpm.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
I'm a tentative.

Car is a 95
Brain-built DIYPNP w/ GSlender stuff, VICS, EBC, etc
9.0:1 forged *****, BP4W head
Currently running on 95 triggers, trying to update to proper NB1 stuff beforehand
5spd
Target whp: Everything the little 2554 can give. Everywhere. Looking for a rally-style EBC spike/taper tune. If the 2554 can do 250cfm, i want that 250cfm from 2000rpm to 7500rpm.
is this the car that you sold last week?
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:30 AM   #15
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Buyer flaked. Not entirely his fault i suppose. His buyer for his race car flaked, so he didn't have the money, and we both got the shaft.

Sooo... **** it. Let's ride.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Closed-loop idle with AC: I've never really been happy with my idle tunes, especially with a light flywheel. However, I was able to get every car I tuned to idle reasonably well and not die in traffic.
In my case, light flywheel. I want to learn as much as I can on idle tuning for when summer rolls around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Closed-loop boost control: I've never jacked with this, but it should be pretty easy to get right. The last few times I jacked with this, it was "not ready" in terms of development, MAT corrections were way off.
Well, supposedly it's getting good now. Now this is your chance to jack with it some more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
EAE takes time but worth it.
Great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Knock: Depending on your hardware, knock doesn't work to well in my experience unless it's changed dramatically in the last 12 months. You'll find that a ton of tuners shockingly tune off knock sensor readings, which I think is preposterous. I use electronic det-cans religiously. You'll find that many tuners put these cars near detonation or on it and let the OEM knock-sensors pull spark angle, which is something I'm not cool with because our knock systems are a bit archaic and frankly, that's not the way OEM nor the way real racecars are tuned. With det-cans you can hear the engine rhythm and can pick-up on syncopated-rhythm before it turns-into knock (typically this means uneven flame propagation, different from the more desirable turbulent flame-front).
Personally, I don't want to "tune" off of the in-car knock sensor. I mainly want it to accurately tell me when things are going poorly and perhaps throw a pre-emptive CEL and do something that preserves the engine. Mainly a fail-safe in case I get bad gas or something goes haywire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Can I get a list of each car's computer, aspiration type (note VVT), and target whp?
MS3x with EBC
Turbo
2001 with VTCS (ICK!) and VVT (10:1?)
6-speed
As many HP as is safe on stock internals. My goal though is consistantly hitting my targets via boost PSI throughout as wide an RPM range as possible. I have a spare motor that will rebuilt for spring of 2016 install that will be 300hp+ capable e85 build and this tune will be my base settings for when e85 is unavailable.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:45 AM   #17
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idle with ms3x is super easy, ac or not, and it is rock solid.
the knock sensor stuff has been improved quite a bit, but I'd still agree with hustler that I wouldn't tune with it.

This sounds like its gonna be really cool. Make sure to post up plots and pics/vids when done, I want to see what hustley can squeeze out of your cars
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:06 PM   #18
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Business question... Would it be cheaper to rent on a weekday or a weekend? I can see two sides of this. One says that during the weekend the dyno time is cheaper because it's not displacing other projects. Other side is that staff isn't normally there on weekends so paying them overtime rate.

Personally I am available any day of the week so I am game either way. I just have to request time off in advance. I know not everyone is so flexible, I am just putting it out there that I am able to be there say, on a Friday to get my stuff in so I don't take time away from anyone who can only be there on a weekend. Obviously this all hinges on the dyno and on Hustler.

By the way, I prefer mid March at the earliest. I don't mind cold, but we have had some icy and snowy Februarys as well as some of that continuing into March...
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:16 PM   #19
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My guess is that Fathouse himself would be there, and i somewhat doubt cost will differ between weekday/weekend. He's just a cool dude that likes messing with cars.


And has an epic beard.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
My guess is that Fathouse himself ...
I can't read that name without thinking of this commercial...

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