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Old 08-23-2016, 10:54 AM   #621
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Oh no definitely fire away; I didn't post in here because I had something to be proud of.
That's a good point with checking tires. I'll keep that in mind for... the next time out there hah
That was actually the first turn after a warm up lap in a generous time attack setup; the next guy was about 20 seconds back.

On the 2 feet in thing. I hear that thrown around a lot and I'm not 100% on what you're talking about. If I were to lock up my brakes, in almost all occasions that would just make things worse right? (That's a genuine question)
I've only been going to the track for a couple of years now and really don't have the experience to know. I still lift by instinct during slight oversteer... Instruction generally only covers staying on course and not what to do when the sh#t is already on the fan.
Our track has a lot of points where if you go wide, there's a good 3ft hill; I'm scared of having my rear end slide around with uncontrolled braking and rolling off one of those.
It probably doesn't look like it because that area is basically pure sand, but I was braking as hard as I thought possible without locking the brakes or sending myself into a spin from the apex on.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:19 AM   #622
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At :19 when you are no longer headed for the tires and first starting to change direction to head back toward the track you choose to steer back to the right and I would suggest that a more prudent move might be to lock them down and try to avoid re-entering the track. On a hot track that is considered very dangerous and will usually get you a stern lecture around here.

Both feet in means clutch and brake pushed in. Usually with 4 wheels off track it is mandatory you come immediately to the pits and check in with the steward, unless you are in a race. It's an hpde thing.

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Old 08-23-2016, 11:30 AM   #623
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Fear of over steer? Time to sign up for a few drift events. lol
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:44 AM   #624
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If I can chime in here, it seems to me that you need some more confidence and more seat time. You seem very rigid, your hands and arms look very tense, and you have kindof a deer-in-the-headlights look on your face during some of the video.

Slow down a bit, work on relaxing and getting your technique down. shuffle steering on track is no bueno. Practice keeping your hands at 9 and 3, always. Practice doing tighter turns while keeping at least one hand on those positions. Doing so allows you to ALWAYS know which way (and how far) your tires are turned.

Maybe enter an autocross or something where you can explore at-limit handling with lower risk. Oversteer at high speeds is definitely a bit scary, but you need to be more comfortable with the car before you can begin to be comfortable with oversteer at speed. It doesn't look like you're particularly comfortable with the car yet.

Sure seems to perform well though. Love that BOV sound. Chuffed.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:14 PM   #625
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Try moving the seat fordward a bit, you will be more relaxed and is easier to make small corrections if your arms are not straight, also havean experienced driver ride along and coach you.
start out with a car that pushes so dial a little rear toe in and perhaps take a link of your rear sway to start out
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:51 PM   #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Not to be that guy but, it's a really good idea to avoid coming back across the hot track at all costs. You were still trying to drive out of it when it would have been advisable to put both feet in.

It is advisable to immediately come in and check out the tire beads and the car in general after going off track in that manner. I've known guys who had turf between the rim and tire going sideways off track and it let the air down in a lap or two.
I came here to echo this too. I've always been coached that as soon as you know you are going off, straighten the wheel as much as possible. Better to drive it off track than fight going where you're likely going anyway.
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:14 PM   #627
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Thank you for posting the video of the off track excursion. The comments that follow will most definitely help me from making similar mistakes. Mistakes that I probably would have also made (hand shuffling). I can absolutely see how two feet in would have prevented re-entering the course.

Thanks guys.
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:17 PM   #628
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I really appreciate the advice.
The west is still pretty wild when it comes to racing, so I haven't developed the etiquette that will be needed if I head somewhere other than NM.

Really, since adding power, the car does scare me out there. Turns 1,2-3 and the last sweeper make me uncomfortable.
I've only dropped a second off my best lap times since adding the turbo...
Judging by results, as soon as oversteer starts I start multiplying errors.

Hopefully I can get back out there next month and focus on some basics. It's cheap to run laps (laughably cheap) so I don't have much holding me back.
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Old 08-23-2016, 04:02 PM   #629
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^ I agree with autocrossing to get a feel for the car.

Additionally, if you want to learn car control on track or autocross put hard all-seasons on it. They will talk to you before they start to break away and give you plenty of opportunity to develop car control skills. The car will be predictable and easy to catch as it washes out or oversteers. They will teach you to be smooth and to run better lines. Then work your way up to R-compounds gradually. It really is a good way to learn car control.
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Old 08-23-2016, 04:09 PM   #630
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^great suggestion on the less-grippy tires, though I'd recommend a 300-ish treadwear summer tire over an all-season. They'll provide enough grip so you're not all over the place, but still provide smooth breakaway characteristics and lower limits.
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Old 08-23-2016, 05:31 PM   #631
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I must say, though, your shuffle steering is pro-level. Even when driving a straight section, your hands are not at 3 and 9 on the wheel. You had to be doing that consciously to mess with us, right? Impressive.
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Old 08-23-2016, 06:30 PM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Slow hands, greasy tires, and more power than last time

PARC Audition Turbo Miata - YouTube
I only just now realized that I also slid through that whole corner. Watch the first part of the video again.
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Old 08-24-2016, 07:01 PM   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leboeuf View Post
I really appreciate the advice.
The west is still pretty wild when it comes to racing, so I haven't developed the etiquette that will be needed if I head somewhere other than NM.

Really, since adding power, the car does scare me out there. Turns 1,2-3 and the last sweeper make me uncomfortable.
I've only dropped a second off my best lap times since adding the turbo...
Judging by results, as soon as oversteer starts I start multiplying errors.

Hopefully I can get back out there next month and focus on some basics. It's cheap to run laps (laughably cheap) so I don't have much holding me back.
Have you not attended the HPDE school there that is offered? I did it and it definitely helped my lines.

You need to go out wider for Turn 1 and turn in later. You are too far inside and turning it too early.
Turn 2 is cambered to your advantage, so I don't see the fear there.
Turn 3-4 sucks. I still haven't got that complex down.
The last sweeper is what makes me like Arroyo Seco down near Cruces/Deming more. If you go to hot into that last corner, you either spin out and go off into the much lower inner circle (ask me how I know) or a nice crash into the concrete wall.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:40 AM   #634
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Since Soren left NM, all of the instruction events have disappeared. The track this summer was all circle track and drift "events". I've had unofficial instruction, but nothing where I paid someone to ride a long.
I'll keep that in mind for T1.
It's not T2 or T3 that bothers me, its the braking zone between the two...
I really need to come try out ASR!
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:23 PM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leboeuf View Post
Since Soren left NM, all of the instruction events have disappeared. The track this summer was all circle track and drift "events". I've had unofficial instruction, but nothing where I paid someone to ride a long.
I'll keep that in mind for T1.
It's not T2 or T3 that bothers me, its the braking zone between the two...
I really need to come try out ASR!
Well that sucks. I knew Soren went to Colorado, but I didn't know everything else stopped with him leaving. However, the HPDE school I did had nothing to do with him. He wasn't even an instructor. The main guy was John Slenes or something like that. Oh well, if you say there isn't a school anymore, I believe you.

I don't get what you mean by the braking zone. Once you get through turn 2, you are talking about braking hard to enter 3 and 4? If so, you need to brake late and deep into 3, to set you up for 4.

Yes, ASR is awesome. There is absolutely nothing to hit.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:13 PM   #636
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I am no where near a good driver, but I have never understood how people pick up the shuffle steering habit. My very first track day the instructor said to hold the steering wheel lightly at 9 and 3, and that's what I have done from then on.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:25 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by thumpetto007 View Post
I am no where near a good driver, but I have never understood how people pick up the shuffle steering habit. My very first track day the instructor said to hold the steering wheel lightly at 9 and 3, and that's what I have done from then on.
Truth be told, they used to teach it at the Skip Barber school at Laguna Seca. It was about 7 years ago, but I recall distinctly having issues with the instructor (some distant relative on Jacques Villeneuve supposedly) as he rode along with me and criticized my 9-3 hand placement. In the end, I never could get the stupid hand shuffle down to his liking, and since I could handle the figure-8 wet skidpad (drifting) better than any of the other students while using my 9-3 he backed off and let me stick with it for the rest of the course.

I have taken numerous other courses since then, and never once has an instructor complained about 9-3 hands.
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:39 AM   #638
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Ha! interesting. I think i always had the 9 and 3 thing in my head... I used to watch formula 1, and the steering wheels are designed to only allow a 9 and 3 grip, so I figured if the best drivers in the best cars are doing it... that I should to.

Is there any motorsports that the shuffle steering is actually good for? Professional parking with a suicide ****?

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Old 08-26-2016, 10:06 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by thumpetto007 View Post

Is there any motorsports that the shuffle steering is actually good for? Professional parking with a suicide ****?
Rally needs the shuffle.

I picked it up while autocrossing since my legs are against the bottom of the wheel. I can't move my hands lower than 7:30 and 4:30.
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Old 08-31-2016, 01:15 AM   #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpetto007 View Post
Ha! interesting. I think i always had the 9 and 3 thing in my head... I used to watch formula 1, and the steering wheels are designed to only allow a 9 and 3 grip, so I figured if the best drivers in the best cars are doing it... that I should to.

Is there any motorsports that the shuffle steering is actually good for? Professional parking with a suicide ****?



How you keep track of the spatial presence of a huge truck like that is beyond me.
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