Crank sensor problems
04-14-2023, 07:05 PM
#1
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Crank sensor problems
I’m in need of some help. I’ve installed a ms3pro evo. Built the harness and have confirmed the wiring is good. Crank and cam sensors have pull-up resisters between the power and sensor wires. I have 12v on the power and 5v on sensor wires at the connectors. The sensor ground is confirmed good. I have tried a couple different sensors. I am not getting any rpm signal. The no sync is lit up.
I’m sure it something in my tune. I’m a complete novice at this tune stuff.
This is my tune.
Thanks in advance
Troy
I’m sure it something in my tune. I’m a complete novice at this tune stuff.
This is my tune.
Thanks in advance
Troy
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04-15-2023, 04:06 AM
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Last edited by ThomasButton; 04-28-2023 at 03:22 AM.
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04-16-2023, 07:53 AM
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The cam and crank sensor need ground (does not have to be referenced ground from ECU), 12v switched power like from the main relay (again, not from ECU), and a signal wire back to ECU. It may work with 5V power from ECU but I can't say for sure. I can't remember if I put the pull up resistor to 5V or 12V and am too lazy to take out my seat and open my ECU but there are a few threads around that say where it should go.
On my car (95 NA8) I repurposed the factory cam position sensor connector and used the 12v, ground, and signal wire back to the ms3 for the cam sensor. For the crank sensor I repurposed the factory MAF connector and used 12v, ground, and MAF signal wire to be my crank signal and jumped it inside the ms3. Again, I have pull ups on both but can't remember if to 5v or 12v.
edit: just found an old thread I made about my ecu. Pull ups go to 5v. They were 1k.
Last edited by hector; 04-16-2023 at 08:09 AM.
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04-16-2023, 09:11 AM
#4
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To clarify, yes 12v is switched power. Pull-up is a 1k between power and CKP+ wire. That gives me 5v on that wire. The sensor ground is tied into the sensor return that is ground for most of the sensors at the ECU. All the wires been confirmed to be landing on the correct pin at the ECU. I’ve tried multiple sensors including new.
I feel like it is something I have set incorrectly in the tune.
I feel like it is something I have set incorrectly in the tune.
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04-16-2023, 04:34 PM
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I'm still unsure of how you have the pull up resistor wired up.
From the ms3pro manual:
"Some sensors put out a square wave signal on their own, like the tabbed body ones sold by AMP EFI. Others switch from a ground output to a floating (undefined) output. The ones that behave this way require running a 1K resistor from their power terminal to their signal terminal (called a pull-up resistor) to work with MS3Pro. If you’re not sure which sensor type you have, supply it with power and ground, and check the voltage on its output wire when the sensor is both far away from any metal and touching a piece of steel (note - do not use stainless steel for this test; some grades of stainless steel aren’t magnetic.) If the output voltage stays at zero the whole time, you’ll need the pull up resistor; connect the 1K resistor from the signal wire to the power wire. If it is at zero volts in one state and bounces up to at least 5 volts in the other state, it doesn’t need a pull up resistor. The MS3Pro package includes two 1K resistors in blue sealed tubing with blue wire leads."
Is this how you have it wired up?
And for grins and giggles you may want to try getting ground from an engine source instead of the ecu. Less noise for the finicky decoder to process.
From the ms3pro manual:
"Some sensors put out a square wave signal on their own, like the tabbed body ones sold by AMP EFI. Others switch from a ground output to a floating (undefined) output. The ones that behave this way require running a 1K resistor from their power terminal to their signal terminal (called a pull-up resistor) to work with MS3Pro. If you’re not sure which sensor type you have, supply it with power and ground, and check the voltage on its output wire when the sensor is both far away from any metal and touching a piece of steel (note - do not use stainless steel for this test; some grades of stainless steel aren’t magnetic.) If the output voltage stays at zero the whole time, you’ll need the pull up resistor; connect the 1K resistor from the signal wire to the power wire. If it is at zero volts in one state and bounces up to at least 5 volts in the other state, it doesn’t need a pull up resistor. The MS3Pro package includes two 1K resistors in blue sealed tubing with blue wire leads."
Is this how you have it wired up?
And for grins and giggles you may want to try getting ground from an engine source instead of the ecu. Less noise for the finicky decoder to process.
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04-16-2023, 07:57 PM
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Well that didn’t work. Everything unplugged but the injectors and still nothing.
Im still wondering if it is something in the tune. The tune I loaded was from my ms3 basic from MSLabs. I was running itbs. I then changed fuel and timing maps. Made changes for the new injectors. Changed it to speed density.
Im still wondering if it is something in the tune. The tune I loaded was from my ms3 basic from MSLabs. I was running itbs. I then changed fuel and timing maps. Made changes for the new injectors. Changed it to speed density.
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04-17-2023, 01:14 PM
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Are you sure you should be installing resistors for the Ultimate EVO ECU? I feel like they are set up with crank and cam signal input ready to go for the factory NB crank/cam sensors.
NB sensors require 12v/ground, they send out 5v on their own...
Your tune looks correct if you are set up for sequential.
NB sensors require 12v/ground, they send out 5v on their own...
Your tune looks correct if you are set up for sequential.
Last edited by natewin; 04-17-2023 at 01:30 PM.
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04-17-2023, 02:13 PM
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Yes, it may be open to interpretation, but it appears to say that you don't need one.
Since you have three wire sensors, they are not floating/undefined (at least the way I see it) I also read what hector wrote and read it right off the EFI site. I also asked a friend who ran a MS3Pro Ultimate and he installed 0 pullups with NB stock sensors. I also don't know anyone with a PNP running pullups with stock sensors. My MS3X (pre built) I did not run any additional resistors with my two CAS signals. See what I'm getting at? Maybe with a stock 96/97 sensor you'd use a pullup, but even then I don't know if that would work. The short answer there is don't use a stock 96/97 sensor and switch to a NB sensor.
So
Try taking the pullup out, then test for 5v on the signal wire while supplying 12v and ground. You probably need to excite it with metal, as the manual also states, to get it to output the 5v. Once you see you are getting 5v you can hook to the ECU without the resistor.
The entire manual section:
Others switch from a ground output to a floating (undefined) output. The ones that behave this way require running a 1K resistor from their power terminal to their signal terminal (called a pull-up resistor) to work with MS3Pro.
So
Try taking the pullup out, then test for 5v on the signal wire while supplying 12v and ground. You probably need to excite it with metal, as the manual also states, to get it to output the 5v. Once you see you are getting 5v you can hook to the ECU without the resistor.
The entire manual section:
4.3.2 Hall effect and optical sensors Hall effect and optical sensors work on different principles of physics, but these two types of sensors use the same wiring. These use a switching transistor and are powered from an external source (either 5 or 12 volts; if your sensor can run on either, we recommend using 12 volts). Your typical sensor has three pins - the power wire goes to a 12 or 5 volt feed, the ground wire goes to sensor ground, and the signal wire goes to CKP+ or CMP+ as AMP EFI MS3ProEVO manual version 1.210, firmware 1.5.2, 11/12/2021 Page 39 4.4 Other sensors 4 WIRING appropriate. Do not use CMP- or CKP- with Hall effect or optical sensors. Leave this wire disconnected and taped off; do not connect to ground. Some sensors put out a square wave signal on their own, like the tabbed body ones sold by AMP EFI. Others switch from a ground output to a floating (undefined) output. The ones that behave this way require running a 1K resistor from their power terminal to their signal terminal (called a pull-up resistor) to work with MS3Pro. If you’re not sure which sensor type you have, supply it with power and ground, and check the voltage on its output wire when the sensor is both far away from any metal and touching a piece of steel (note - do not use stainless steel for this test; some grades of stainless steel aren’t magnetic.) If the output voltage stays at zero the whole time, you’ll need the pull up resistor; connect the 1K resistor from the signal wire to the power wire. If it is at zero volts in one state and bounces up to at least 5 volts in the other state, it doesn’t need a pull up resistor. The MS3Pro package includes two 1K resistors in blue sealed tubing with blue wire leads. In some cases where a Hall effect sensor puts out 12 volts and the wiring harness has severe noise issues, tying the CKP- or CMP- wires to the VREF output can reduce noise.
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04-17-2023, 02:31 PM
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Yeah, this stuff gets written by people who live and breathe this stuff and it gets to us and isn't as clear as they think it is. Like I said, it does look open to the way you read it where they state one sensor then immediately the other and then say you need pullups. Again, at least the way I read it, which also could be wrong...
Hope this does it for you though. If you want to test just the crank wheel setup, it looks like you are doing a 36-2 wheel, check my build thread for setting up batch fire with that wheel. I just went through setting it up and had to troubleshoot some miswiring of my own.
Hope this does it for you though. If you want to test just the crank wheel setup, it looks like you are doing a 36-2 wheel, check my build thread for setting up batch fire with that wheel. I just went through setting it up and had to troubleshoot some miswiring of my own.
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04-17-2023, 03:03 PM
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You'll get there, I was testing multiple NB sensors and realize I had two crank triggers wired in at the same time b/c I had made my pnp harness incorrectly a few days before running it. Forgot, got some funky sync errors, only 7 of the 36 teeth would show when running 36-2 and a 4 spoke CAS crank signal at the same time... oops.
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04-17-2023, 03:45 PM
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I just checked a Mazda crank sensor for the NB. It has zero volts on the signal wire with 12v and ground applied to the other wires. It had about 1v when a piece of metal was brought close to it. I had pull-ups on my DIYPNP, and I have pull-ups on my MS3Pro module. I put them on at the behest of the Brain. If you have a pre-built MS3X, it likely had pull-ups installed.
One thing I should mention on my build is that I had the pull-ups wired to 12v, as in just jumped the 12v and signal wires with a 1k resistor at the sensor connector. After getting some lost sync faults I took the resistors inside the ecu and I put them to 5v. That got rid of my sync faults for good. But as I mentioned, it still ran with the pull-ups to 12v and obviously I had a lively composite log.
If all your wiring is good and you have comms with the ecu, then I guess it must be something in your base tune. Sorry I haven't opened it but I haven't messed with tuning my car in almost four years and the laptop I used for it is long gone and I have yet to set up my replacement laptop for tuning. Wish I could be more help.
Lastly, I'm fairly certain that MSLabs uses a different firmware than DIYAuto so clearly copy and paste won't work and you'd get a million errors if you tried. I'm sure you knew this but just in case.
One thing I should mention on my build is that I had the pull-ups wired to 12v, as in just jumped the 12v and signal wires with a 1k resistor at the sensor connector. After getting some lost sync faults I took the resistors inside the ecu and I put them to 5v. That got rid of my sync faults for good. But as I mentioned, it still ran with the pull-ups to 12v and obviously I had a lively composite log.
If all your wiring is good and you have comms with the ecu, then I guess it must be something in your base tune. Sorry I haven't opened it but I haven't messed with tuning my car in almost four years and the laptop I used for it is long gone and I have yet to set up my replacement laptop for tuning. Wish I could be more help.
Lastly, I'm fairly certain that MSLabs uses a different firmware than DIYAuto so clearly copy and paste won't work and you'd get a million errors if you tried. I'm sure you knew this but just in case.
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04-17-2023, 03:59 PM
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Hector I think you are correct about the pnp boards having pull-ups on them from what I remember reading. I started to tear into my harness and stopped. I spent what felt like a month building it. And tearing it apart is painfull.
i shot an email to AMP asking if the pull-ups are needed.
I have abandoned the previous tune and reloaded firmware for ms3pro evo and a base tune for ms3pro for a Miata and made changes for my 36-2 trigger wheel. Still no signal. It’s depressing.
depending on AMP’s answer I’ll send them my tune and see if they can help me.
i shot an email to AMP asking if the pull-ups are needed.
I have abandoned the previous tune and reloaded firmware for ms3pro evo and a base tune for ms3pro for a Miata and made changes for my 36-2 trigger wheel. Still no signal. It’s depressing.
depending on AMP’s answer I’ll send them my tune and see if they can help me.
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04-23-2023, 07:39 PM
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Well I did it to myself. I figured it out. After going through the wiring for the who knows how many times I found the crank sensor wire on the wrong pin at the ECU connector. I’m an idiot.
Now to get it started and hope I don’t blow it up before I get it to the tuner.
thanks for all input guys.
Now to get it started and hope I don’t blow it up before I get it to the tuner.
thanks for all input guys.
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