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Old 11-27-2010, 10:13 PM   #1
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Default Idle issue with MS2 unit, Log and Msq inside.

I am having issues with the car idling after getting my MS Installed and I swear on MS1 there was a setting to tell it where to idle at and I just can not find it in tuner studio among the other things I am getting used too.

I made a data log, it goes to 3700-3800 and sits there upon start up and then starts going back and forth up and down.

Here is my Data Log:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...9//running.msl

This is on a 2000 Miata using a AbeFM MS2 unit, the Miata is NA currently this is just me getting used to the new setup. (This setup does not use Joe's spark mod FYI)

I believe this is my latest tuner studio complete file, I just saved it after not closing TS after coming inside.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...7_19.11.48.msq


Any and all help would rock, thanks!



----UPDATE 11/28 6:20PM----
Alright I am at my wits end. I tried looking through the old tune file that came with this MS for version 2.1.0 I believe. I made some changes as a test and I still have issues but now the idle is just jumping up and down but never drops below 2700.

Last File ran before trying to mirror many changes from the old 2.1.0 tune:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...69//backup.msq

Current Tester Setup:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Current Tester.msq

I am really at a loss here I don't even feel like I can make a dent in this. Please guys, this idle thing has been kicking my butt.



---UPDATE 11/29 10:30PM----
I thought I found something.... but I only ended up scaring myself.

So I was looking through all my MS files I keep as backups (I had some really old stuff lol) and I had downloaded a group file that I guess Abe made that contained two MSQ's.

I loaded the newest one up and the issue was the same but he had quite a few changes across the board so I figured why not.

I am uploading that tune right now as we speak.

But I played around and found this:
Basic Settings -> CLT Based Rev Limit

The table really looked strange but then I honestly was not familiar with this tables purpose.

Looking though my idle seemed to be following its guide lines so I said screw it and dragged the plot down (This is all in my Data Log that I have uploaded too) and low and behold the idle started coming right down... but the car started running really rich and not recovering. It also started running like crap and when I finally shut it off sounded like it back fired....

The idle was def coming down I just felt the car was running to rough so now would you care looking things over Brain and telling me what you think?
He changed some of the crank and dwell etc I am curious if I should put those back or not...

But anyway here is the data log:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Current Setup 2.msl

And the new MSQ:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Current Tester 2.msq

Well here is the latest log I played around a little and only succeed in scaring the crap out of myself and heating the car up almost to far well beyond the limits I wanted...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Current Setup 3.msl

I put back in the stock ecu and cooled it off seems fine idles just fine I did not even adjust the idle screw yet.

I have no idea what this is I turned off the Idle Control tried different timing (Which lead to the high heat I am going to go back and review just how high and how long... it still had coolant but it did drain around 30% through the coolant over flow which was almost full as it was).

A scary night with no answers.... I really do not see how the last owner got this running no problems, and I can not even get it to idle.

Reviewing the log there was less than 2 minutes between going from 205 to 250.... just a steady rise like the fans did not even come on it never seemed to just spike but even the dash temp gauge did not move till right near the end when I caught it (the gauges do not work when making changes to menu items so I could not see it on MS itself). I shut it off obviously so were talking less than 2 minutes from rise to shut off but...
I don't mind toys nor what they bring but this was too close for comfort on a car with less than 70k. Now I am going to be paranoid I hurt something.
Less than 2 minutes to reach that temp and I caught it but it does not change the fact that it unnerved me. It only take a split second as everyone likes to say (Including me). The logical side says I am fine I caught it and handled it correctly but doubt never fails on these kinds of issues to make you second guess yourself.

My latest updates to the MSQ for tomorrows tests if I am brave enough:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...9_23.35.57.msq


------UPDATE 12/14/2010--------
Alright, with the car running via the IAC unplugged I have been riving it and tuning it as follows. I am looking into getting the warmup enrichment right and smoothing things out but there is still this High Idle Issue if I plug the IAC back in.

I would love some advice on my current msq and the data logs I have done the past few days. I will put them in order from the first day to today's last one.
Any and all advice on things I should look at, smooth out etc I welcome. I feel a random hesitation at times and I am sure its data logged esp this morning as well as being way to rich on cold start this morning but I think I am starting to get it pretty close to being dialed in.

Logs:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...un 1 12.11.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...un 2 12.11.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...un 3 12.11.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...ning 12.13.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...Home 12.13.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...rive 12.14.msl
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...rive 12.14.msl

Again they are in order from start to today, the last two are today's.

Here is my Warm up enrichment since I have IAC control completely off (Its disconnected so I believe that to be the proper choice at this time):
Name:  warmup.jpg
Views: 6
Size:  48.9 KB

And here is the Current MSQ:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...est%20Tune.msq

Thanks, hopefully someone will have an idea oh and on the fan comment I tried changing it to one and noticed no difference, put it back to 0 and checked to find both fans were on.

Last edited by Cross; 12-15-2010 at 12:06 AM. Reason: Update
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:08 AM   #2
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Alright I made some changes and took it for a drive to see if I could work anything out.... nothing really.
I can tell you the car idles between 3-4k no matter what and without any input sat at 45 in 4th.... other than that when on the throttle it was nice some fine tuning and it would be great but I can't do anything about the idle it seems.

I tried looking over other logs including a few AbeFM ones and making changes with no luck.

I just tried a few more changes with no luck either it goes to 4k on start up and then bounces between 3-4k the rest of the time.... DAMIT. (I even closed the idle air screw all the way.... or opened it all the way but I doubt it now that I second guessed myself I will go check it in the morning)

New MSQ:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...9//Testing.msq

New Data Log:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Took it for a test run 1.msl


Hopefully I can get some help with all that information, even if its a fix I should have already seen but have overlooked... I just want to get this idle smoothed out.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:14 AM   #3
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Did you check the "DIYPNP enhanced group buy" thread? There are quite a few of us that had high idle issues and many got them worked out.
There are some links in there that might help. I'm not familiar with ms2 enough to offer any more advice, but hope that helps at least some.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:15 AM   #4
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Actually I have been reading your logs playing with some of your settings just to test with oddly enough. Your one of the few 99's I can find msq's for online.

I will check the thread thanks for the heads up.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:18 AM   #5
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Turn on PWN Closed loop boost control. I know Abe doesn't use it, but I much enjoy it.

http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/Idle_Cont...00000000000000
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:32 PM   #6
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I am looking over the link you sent me and it seems that some items are not showing up in Tuner Studio.

I also noticed the instructions say MS3 up top, I am using MS2. Should I be concerned or?

AKA I have none of this:
Quote:
1. Throttle Lift - On throttle lift, the code opens the valve to the value learned in the last iteration of the PID loop + the dashpot adder. The logic here is that the last learned value should result in an RPM close to the target RPM. The dashpot adder is added so that when RPM settles, it settles to an RPM slightly higher than the target. This is in case the air conditioning was turned on or IAT increased or anything else that might make RPM lower than the last time the PID code ran.
2. RPM settles - After throttle lift, eventually the clutch is pushed in and RPM drops to wherever it will settle given the learned value + the dashpot adder. Hopefully the idle has settled to an RPM that is less than the commanded target + the Idle Activation RPM adder. IF so, then the code will wait for the amount of time specified by the PID delay, and then enter PID control. If RPM settles above the commanded target + Idle Activation RPM adder, the code then starts checking the PID lockout detection conditions. Assuming those condtions are met, the code will still enter the PID loop after the amount of time specified by the PID delay.
3. PID control activates, RPM starts dropping to target - After the PID delay expires, the PID code will be activated. RPM will slowly drop to the target over the number of seconds specified by the PID ramp to target time.
4. Normal idle speed reached - RPM reaches the commanded target. PID continues regulating RPM until the throttle is pressed.
And this one is the one I can not find that I swear MS1 had when was not using Tuner Studio however it seems megatuner does no work with Windows 7.
Quote:
Normal idle speed reached - RPM reaches the commanded target. PID continues regulating RPM until the throttle is pressed.

Last edited by Cross; 11-28-2010 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:26 PM   #7
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turn on pwm closed loop idle like i said. this code for ms2 and ms3 is the same.

you are using warm up only mode...which is weaksauce.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:38 PM   #8
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I swear I had it on closed loop idle, maybe I changed it while playing around I will put it back I have done most of the other settings.

But I am ready after reading all that and playing around to go give it a shot, Everything else is set I am going to try working on this section to gain results I hope.

Either way thank you for the help I really do appreciate it.

Quote:
The following basic steps should be used for tuning the PID controller gains:

1. Zero all the gains - Set all the gains to 0%. This is so that the effects of tuning the I-term in the next step are not confused with the effects of any other setting.
2. Tune the Integral (I) gain - The Integral gain is the only term that controls whether the code actually reaches its target. Higher values for Integral gain will result in the code being able to get closer to the commanded target; however, a value that is too high will result in oscillation. The easiest way to determine a good value for the I term is to keep increasing it until oscillation occurs, then slightly lower it. If this value is increased to 200% without reaching a point where oscillation occurs, then the RPM with valve opened setting can be decreased as far as necessary, and the open duty/steps setting and closed duty/steps setting can be made further apart to make the PID loop more sensitive.
3. Tune the Proportional (P) gain - After tuning the I gain so that the RPM reaches the commanded target without oscillation, the P gain can be tuned. The best way to tune this is to set it as high as possible without getting any oscillation. After setting this, try turning on the air conditioning or other accessories that normally lower RPM or increase load. When these accessories are turned on, the RPM should dip a bit then recover (the valve position should increase significantly). Using longer PID ramp to target times can also make it so that when the PID algorithm engages, a higher P gain can be set without causing oscillation.
4. Tune the Derivative (D) gain - For most users, use of the D gain should not be necessary. It substantially dampens the response of the loop.

Some final tips:

* Idle Fuel Tuning - Before even attempting to tune Closed-loop Idle speed control, tune the area around idle so that if RPM goes up or down or load goes up or down, the AFR stays close to the same value. Changing AFR can affect idle speed, which can then cause the PID code to try to correct, getting into an unrecoverable oscillation.
Also here is the new TS File Msq of my changed settings before I go burn them to the MS Unit and give it a shot.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//New Idle Settings Base.msq
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:10 PM   #9
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keep AFRs and Spark angle constant at idle helps tremendously. I'm using tableswitching so when I turn on A/C the spark holds 17* vs. 12* without it. Otherwise I was using the timing advance table to try to achieve the same effect.
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:19 PM   #10
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Thanks I will go make some changes in that area, I just keep wondering why with all these settings it goes so high on idle 3-4k I feel like I have over looked a simple setting but I just don't see it.

Either way lets see what this does! Hope to drive it around town tonight for fun.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:00 PM   #11
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Ok I just got back from playing around and I think somehow the settings are inverted.

While watching I noticed on the Closed Loop Idle Target that as the point went down the RPM went up. It no longer jumps all over but instead of dropping as the program settings show (Uploading that pic now) it goes up. I was up to 4400RPM.

So here is the Data Log:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...8_15.53.12.msl

Here is the picture:


I thought there was a way to invert the setting or something to that effect.
Thanks!
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:39 PM   #12
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Alright I sat down and played with the settings and it did nothing, nothing I changed made it go down or change. I am going to go back and look over the changes from now compared to before but instead of jumping all over now it just gets to almost 4500rpm and sits there.

I really have to be overlooking something stupid on my end I just can not find it.

The picture I loaded shows it should be telling the car to idle where it belongs and instead it just goes sky high.
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:16 PM   #13
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Alright I am at my wits end. I tried looking through the old tune file that came with this MS for version 2.1.0 I believe. I made some changes as a test and I still have issues but now the idle is just jumping up and down but never drops below 2700.

Last File ran before trying to mirror many changes from the old 2.1.0 tune:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/...69//backup.msq

Current Tester Setup:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/26/2490169//Current Tester.msq

I am really at a loss here I don't even feel like I can make a dent in this. Please guys, this idle thing has been kicking my butt.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:35 AM   #14
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If you cant get the idle below 2700RPM you have a bigger issue.

change it to warm up mode only and force the valve to like 10%DC...what is your idle speed?

if above 1200RPM, then fix your vacuum leak.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:35 PM   #15
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I thought it was a Vacuum leak too so I hooked back up the stock ECU and only reopened the throttle screw some. Idled just like it was supposed too made no sense at all.

I will try that though I was reading last night of other throttle issues were people disconnected the IAC and it went away I am going to try that too.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:41 PM   #16
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The issue doesn't go away if you unplug the IACV. You've just masked it with a shitty work around.

Go to idle valve test mode, and force the valve at 0% DC. Then gradually increase the PWM%, do the RPMS increase or decrease? What is the range in which the valve operates? and what are the RPM points?

For example, my valve operates between 20-70%DC, anything above and below have no reactions. This can allow it to go to 700-2000RPM or so.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:42 PM   #17
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Going to try that now thanks Brain.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:45 PM   #18
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If I look at your first log, your idle valve is locked at 23%DC. Which is fairly shut. It doesn't move. The idle going up and down is in direct relation to your tune...specifically your Fueling.

Look how your pulse width dumps in a **** ton of fuel, then none at all. That's what's causing the oscillation, NOT the idle valve.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:49 PM   #19
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I will try a base fuel map from another tune and see what it does too then, I was just walking out to the garage to try the other ideas I like this I have a few goals.

Thanks again Brain really appreciate the help I will paypal you a site donation for all this.

Last edited by Cross; 11-29-2010 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:53 PM   #20
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tune out the oscillation with the fuel map...

looking at your first map posted. If you look at your idle valve settings, the idle valve works within a range of 6% to 23%, so it's acutally locked open on your first log at 23%...so that's why you have so much RPMs.

go to idle settings, change it to PWM warmup...then change the PWM table and force all the numbers to 6% and see how it idles. Tune your fuel.


you should also go into general settings, lags, and lower the TPS lag threshold value, this will smooth out your TPS signal...it's pretty dirty on that log and might be triggering the fuel to be cut like it is.
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