Ignition Fail on Dyno!!! Help Please. - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-22-2012, 09:03 AM   #21
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Shueind, not interested in used coils, but thanks for the offer. Don't plan to worry about this again in the future. I go all new on 99% of my stuff.
Well if you are going to drop money on new coils, I do not suggest going with OEM coils. A new coil pack is $200-$230 from finishlineperformance.com, as opposed you can do a LS2 coils swap for about that price and have a much better spark output. For reference my OEM 94 coils would not do good above 9.5psi on the dyno. I would start getting spark blow out.

Also where in Dumfries do you live? I went to FPHS years ago.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:39 AM   #22
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yes, in AE wizerd
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:49 PM   #23
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$140 Club Price at Mazda - Werd

It's the mother f'ing coils. I changed the plugs and wires out, moved the map line to the middle of the mani and made the TPSdot change Brain suggested. All with no results.

Damn - about $50 wasted on parts that didn't need to be replaced.

Problem is that the coils ship from Cali and I live in VA. AutoX Saturday, so I need to find a temp replacement if I want to go. Missed the entire season last year and looking forward to whooping up on some BMWs.

Thanks for the help guys and I'll be sure to post back after checking with another set of coils.

I live right near Walmart at 234 and rt 1, but moving out of Dumpfries...
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #24
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Can anyone backup claims to stock coils not being sufficient for this level of boost - 9.5psi. I don't want to waste $140 for less than adequate solution. Is the LS coil swap batch also? If not, what changes will be necessary in terms of wiring and msq? Is the idea to use used coils? Aren't the wires like $125 on their own? FM sells an LS3 kit for like $700. F that.

I'd heard that the 01-04 COPs work well with moderate boost. Is this a good option? How would I use a timing light with no plug wires? Seems it would be cheaper. Do I have the hardware on the MS side to support COPs? That would be 4 sequential signals instead of 2 batch, right? What other changes and what wiring suggested - like special shielding, guage, etc.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by sccaax View Post
Can anyone backup claims to stock coils not being sufficient for this level of boost - 9.5psi. I don't want to waste $140 for less than adequate solution. Is the LS coil swap batch also? If not, what changes will be necessary in terms of wiring and msq? Is the idea to use used coils? Aren't the wires like $125 on their own? FM sells an LS3 kit for like $700. F that.

I'd heard that the 01-04 COPs work well with moderate boost. Is this a good option? How would I use a timing light with no plug wires? Seems it would be cheaper. Do I have the hardware on the MS side to support COPs? That would be 4 sequential signals instead of 2 batch, right? What other changes and what wiring suggested - like special shielding, guage, etc.
The stock coils tend of vary on how well they work. Some people have good luck with them and they work fine for 15psi. Other people such as I have them crap out at a low level.

The solution for the longest time has been to go with Toyota COPS as replacements. They are relatively cheap and easy to do. You can buy almost PNP setups for $300-$400 from TSE. Or you can do it yourself for $75-$150 depending on how good you are at finding used coils and such. The benefits of COPS were that the fit perfectly into the spark plug holes, no longer need spark plug wires, they output a tach signal, and can be ran in wasted spark of sequential.

Now there is a movement to running LS style coils. FM has their kit which is expensive as you have seen. A big part of that cost is that they buy new OEM coils from GM which are costly. You can do it for a good bit cheaper if you are ok with DIY. The bracket from FM is $45 which is not horribly priced. Their custom spark plug wires are Magnecore and cost $89 with a lifetime warranty on them. You can order the wires from FM or get them straight from Magnecore for around the same price. There have also been several users who have used stock spark plug wires fine with LS coils. With the FM bracket there are 2 types of LS coils you can use. You can either use LS3 coils which is what they sell you, or you can run some LS2 coils. Buying the coils online from ebay is much much cheaper. They generally run $15-$25 depending on which ones you get. The pigtails for the coils can also be picked up for between $25-$40 depending on where you get them. Downfall of LS coils is that they do not output a tach signal so your EMS has to do that. Since you have a 96 miata your MS does this already so it is not an issue. Also so far everyone has been running the coils in sequential mode, but I do not see why you could not run wasted spark.

As for the comparison which is better between Toyota Cops and LS coils, it varies. The LS coils definitely have a much stronger spark then the COPS. The upfront costs of the LS coils can be a bit higher if you go with FM bracket and wires. On the other hand you can get brand new LS coils for about what you pay for used COPS. The pigtails come out to about the same cost.

I know for my first LS2 coil setup I spent about $125 total to get it up and running. That was buying 4 new coils from ebay, pigtails, making my own bracket to hold them, and then reusing my stock spark plug wires. I am now going with the FM bracket because it is much cleaner. I am also switching to a coil that will fit their bracket. I am planning on reusing my stock spark plug wires for the time being, but will buy the FM ones in a bit once I have some more money.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:28 PM   #26
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For the LS coil setup, I would prolly get the FM bracket and buy used coils online. Which one "fit" as you identified your current LS coils do not. Also, in sequential are you guys using coils designed for two cyclinders just with one wire, or does each ls coil feed a single cylinder? I don't see how they could also be used in batch otherwise. With the LS coils, is it necessary to run any additional wiring back to the MS, or can the stock harness wires be tapped? What's the wiring look like? I/Os on the board or pins on the connector would be helpful.

What exact changes are necessary in msq? I know dwell settings will change depending on which coils I end up with identically. Are typical dwell curves available online for LS coils from the manufacturer, or do I need to trust a forum map?
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by sccaax View Post
For the LS coil setup, I would prolly get the FM bracket and buy used coils online. Which one "fit" as you identified your current LS coils do not. Also, in sequential are you guys using coils designed for two cyclinders just with one wire, or does each ls coil feed a single cylinder? I don't see how they could also be used in batch otherwise. With the LS coils, is it necessary to run any additional wiring back to the MS, or can the stock harness wires be tapped? What's the wiring look like? I/Os on the board or pins on the connector would be helpful.

What exact changes are necessary in msq? I know dwell settings will change depending on which coils I end up with identically. Are typical dwell curves available online for LS coils from the manufacturer, or do I need to trust a forum map?
I am busy at work today and don't have access to all my info so I will post more later tonight.

The coils that fit in the FM bracket can be bought new here for $23.xx each.

For wiring the Megamanual has a ton of info on the coils. They have all the info you needs for Dwell settings and curves. James one of the coders for MS runs LS coils in his drag car. So there is plenty of documentation.

As for full sequential or wasted-spark, each coil has its own built in ignitor and coil. So I have each ones "signal" wire wired up to my MS3X. I see no reason why you could not pair the signal wires for 1/4 and 2/3 and have the coils run wasted spark. I just have never done it.

As for wiring it is not harder to do then COPS. I can help you with that if you need it.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:45 PM   #28
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Yeah, I think this is the way I'd like to go. I'm going to go ahead and purchase the FM bracket and coils tonight prolly. Interested to hear more about how wiring works for sequential - no fing around with batch if I'm going to do this thing. If I could reuse the stock harness, that would be great. Sounds like I'll be down at least two signal wires and maybe corresponding grounds? Is this something I've got to worry about either generating or being susceptible to noise?
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:46 PM   #29
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Ah, In batch I would just tie the signals to the coils together - gotcha now. I was like - each coil only has 1 wire - WTF.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:27 PM   #30
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What ecu you are as that will determine how hard it is to run full sequential.

Here are the FM Big Spark Kit install instructions.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:51 AM   #31
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Diypnp
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:48 AM   #32
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Diypnp
You would have to do some research and see if your Diypnp could support running sequential spark and if not what needs to be done to make it support sequential. Then it would just be running 2 additional wires back.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:12 PM   #33
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Looks like DIYPNP supports the two additional signals on WLED and ALED I believe. Would be great if someone could confirm. Also if someone could confirm if ALED and WLED require jumpers internal or if its just a software setting on outputs. Imagine I need a jumper from ALED and WLED to my DB connector and to wire in at my terminal boards. It appears 100 Ohm resistors will also be necessary at R1 and R2. Anyone that has done this on the DIY?

Also, thanks for the link to big spark instructions - very helpful. However, where do I come across said wiring harness used in the FM kit? It seems they pulled from a GM setup. Also, anybody know what the connector type is to interface with the stock coil plug? I'd like to keep everything as neat as possible.

Finally, dwell curves for the Ebay coils I just purchased at the link above.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:50 PM   #34
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Is it also necessary to jumper this way for this particular sequential setup outputing on ALED and WLED. I would imagine that ALD is ALED and WLD is WLED. It's not extremely clear.:

http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/do...sted_spark.jpg

"The picture above (attached) shows it jumpered for four separate spark outputs. You'd set it up this way for 4cyl sequential ignition, or for 8-cyl wasted spark (using two 4-tower wasted spark coil packs). All outupts, S1, S2, S3, and S4 would be used. These are the outputs to the ignition coils." DIYAutotune

Is it still necessary to activate and configure ALED and WLED in software outputs? I would imagine not, but not 100% sure if there is a relay that must be activated or anything else electrical I'm not thinking of. It seems for sure that R1 and R2 will need 100 Ohm resistors. I'll run the outputs for 3 and 4 to the DB connector. Grounding for the coils will be fed back through common ground on the main harness and sheild should not be necessary for this boolean signal.

It will not longer be wasted spark. Does that make it "Single Coil"? Does it stay "Falling Edge" and "Going High"? All other Ignition Options screen settings appear to stay the same.

Under More Ignition Options screen still looking for some dwell settings. Also some direction for cranking and not simply base dwell would be appreciated. Values against voltage would also be appreciated. Perhaps I'm not using the right search keywords, but not finding a whole lot on use of these LS coils with Megasquirt. Much less on LS sequential coils on Miata. And nothing on LS sequential coils miata diypnp. Opportunity for a writeup during and after? Wiring diagram shouldn't be terribly difficult.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:43 PM   #35
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Buy ls coil pigtails on ebay

Cut factory connectors and splice ls connectors on.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:41 PM   #36
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Prefer to butcher as little as possible on the harness. Anyone know where I can find the mating connector for wiring harness at back of coils?
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:10 PM   #37
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Prefer to butcher as little as possible on the harness. Anyone know where I can find the mating connector for wiring harness at back of coils?
I have never found a connector that looks like the one on the stock coil pack. To get one I literally cut off the stock connectors off a dead set of stock coil pack to make my set pnp. If you are going full sequential you would still have to run an additional 2 wires.
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Old 03-24-2012, 05:09 PM   #38
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Ah, I'll butcher my crappy coils then. I realize I'll need wires for #s 3 and 4.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:31 PM   #39
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The correct dwell settings appear to be listed here(also attached): http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls2

Would the correct settings in % be as follows and can anyone verify that all these dwell values make sense for the ls2 coils?:

Voltage Percentage
8.0 144
10 116
12 100
14 91
16 84
Attached Thumbnails
Ignition Fail on Dyno!!!  Help Please.-ls2dwell.jpg  
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:38 PM   #40
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Another thing to watch out for is the coils wiring. The FM kit uses LS3 coils they claim. I do not know if those use the LS1 or LS2 wiring pattern.
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