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Old 11-02-2012, 06:39 PM   #61
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You're fighting a losing battle. lol
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:48 PM   #62
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You're fighting a losing battle. lol
yes, I guess politics and engineering never mix
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:34 AM   #63
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just go to the injector dynamics page. they do extensive testing on their injectors.

didn't exactly read the whole thing, but looks something like FIC, or someone selling FIC injectors tried passing off ID data sheets as their own
The Same as Injector Dynamics But Cheaper

I mean, if ID was the same as everyone else, why try to use their data? why try to say same as ID? unless they actually are better?
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:44 AM   #64
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:04 AM   #65
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Six years ago I got one of those silly $18 Megan racing pressure regulators off eBay so I could run my NB injectors at 60psi. The gauge failed, but the regulator Still works great
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:20 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by bmxfuel007 View Post
just go to the injector dynamics page. they do extensive testing on their injectors.

didn't exactly read the whole thing, but looks something like FIC, or someone selling FIC injectors tried passing off ID data sheets as their own
The Same as Injector Dynamics But Cheaper

I mean, if ID was the same as everyone else, why try to use their data? why try to say same as ID? unless they actually are better?
So far in this thread every one agrees that ID make some of the best modified injectors out there.

I understand the benefit of using a flow matched set if the stock injectors had significantly different flow rates.

What I dispute is the notion that a modified injector performs better than the stock injector upon which it is based up to the rated flow rate of the stock injector.

Would a flow matched set of of modified 52# bosch injectors perform better than a flow matched set of unmodified 52# bosch injectors up to the 52# rating?
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post

Would a flow matched set of of modified 52# bosch injectors perform better than a flow matched set of unmodified 52# bosch injectors up to the 52# rating?

why cant you read?

Quote:
There are lots of rumors floating around that other people have the same injectors as our ID2000, they're just not matched by the same process. This is correct, except the rest of the rumor is that the consistency from Bosch is so good that our dynamic matching process doesn't have any benefit.

This is correct, except the rest of the rumor is that the consistency from Bosch is so good that our dynamic matching process doesn't have any benefit.

The chart below shows flow deviation vs. pulsewidth for every 10th injector out of a batch. You can see that while static flow variance is pretty good, there is quite a spread at 2msec pulsewidth, where much of the life of the injector is spent and where you really see and feel a difference from cylinder to cylinder variations.

About a 2% spread at static flow but as much as a 13% spread at 2msec.

Do you think a 13% variance from cylinder to cylinder at idle and part throttle will make a difference in how a car runs?



Attached Thumbnails
Injector and Regulator Recommendation-2000_spread.jpg  
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:32 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
why cant you read?
i read this, but it looks like you didn't read my response
The graph shows the benefit of flow matching.
It does not show that modified injectors perform better than unmodified ones.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #69
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Show us some "unmodified" 1000cc injectors
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Show us some "unmodified" 1000cc injectors
will that help answering my question?
EV14, 957 CC, 12 ohm, Jet -liitin, keskipitkä runko ala-adapterilla - Suuttimet ja niiden lisäosat Suuttimet 750 - 1200 cc/min (14mm)
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:31 PM   #71
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I've no idea what that site says, besides "unmodified". What cars does that come on? Can you find that injector on a USA site that we all know/trust?

Reason for all this is that we know the supposedly "modified" ID's are fantastic.
Your argument is that they might be better prior to said modification. You've yet to post any data showing this to be true. So I'm really not sure where to go from here.

Have you seen any direct comparison tests? Data?
Post that up.
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I've no idea what that site says, besides "unmodified". What cars does that come on? Can you find that injector on a USA site that we all know/trust?
You are right, this site is from Finland. There should be a language change option though. I have no idea if this is available in the USA but I imagine either this or something similar is as the injector mod guys now have 2000cc injectors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
supposedly "modified"

Modified Stock Injectors - Import Tuner Magazine

Last edited by sturovo; 11-04-2012 at 09:02 AM. Reason: added link for mdified injector test, not ev14 but shows possible disadvantages
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:44 PM   #73
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Why bother with the Euro injectors though? Current conversion rates they'd work out to like $450 before shipping anyways, which I'd assume to be substantial given the international distance.
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJP0tato View Post
Why bother with the Euro injectors though? Current conversion rates they'd work out to like $450 before shipping anyways, which I'd assume to be substantial given the international distance.
He is located in Slovakia, so finding injectors in Europe makes sense.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:43 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post
It does not show that modified injectors perform better than unmodified ones.
I never said they did. What I said was that a matched set of ID injectors will outperform a non-matched set of standard EV14s because of the matching process Brain posted about.

Even if the flow pattern is better on an unmodified EV14, you would need to buy several dozen injectors and then have them all matched to get the same low-speed driveability of a set of ID injectors. If you're not going to do that, there's no point in comparing the two.

Last edited by Savington; 11-04-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:55 PM   #76
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Just out of curiosity, would you say that OEM injectors might display less variability? Or is this something that the OEMs end up designing around as well? I don't imagine injectors are matched for econoboxes or Miatas for that matter.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Even if the flow pattern is better on an unmodified EV14.
^This

Injector performance has as much to do with fuel atomization and vectoring as with controlling the quantity of fuel delivered.
Injectors with the atomizing plate removed will have a hard time matching the atomizing and vectoring performance of stock injectors.

Flow matching sounds nice. I wonder why none of the auto makers do it. They must not care about low speed driveability.
The data on that chart looks odd, where is the control line?
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:55 PM   #78
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all I can say is my ID1000's idle better than my stock injectors, and even the five-0 550's and 850's that I've tried out. This is after trying to tune my idle for hours on each set of injectors. The ID1000's were either just that much easier to tune, or maybe I had that much more practice tuning idle from the previous injectors

but anyway, do ID's still have the atomizing plate or no? I know my IDs looked way different than my five-o's.
OEMs don't do a lot things not because they don't care, but because it would cost too much time, which equals $. That's my assumption

also, that chart doesn't need a control line, as there isn't a "control". It's just to prove even among the injectors that they get from Bosch, there is a 13% variance at around Idle. At flow, it shows around a 2% spread (just repeated what it says right above the chart...)
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:11 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post
^This

Injector performance has as much to do with fuel atomization and vectoring as with controlling the quantity of fuel delivered.
Injectors with the atomizing plate removed will have a hard time matching the atomizing and vectoring performance of stock injectors.

Flow matching sounds nice. I wonder why none of the auto makers do it. They must not care about low speed driveability.
The data on that chart looks odd, where is the control line?
Have you ever driven a car back to back between OEM and OEM that have been matched? Even on a bone stock car (including ECU) the difference is quite dramatic. Much smoother both at idle and running through the power band.

Why don't OEMs do it? The bean counters won't let them.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:43 PM   #80
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Spurred on by encouragement and support
I tested 4 ev14 injectors that I modified and compared them to an unmodified one.

-The flow rate more than doubled jumping to around 1000cc
-The flow pattern of the stock injector was a narrow cone angle as opposed to being split in two which is typical for miata injectors with a 4 hole atomizing plate. (These particular ev14s were used in some single intake valve Ford applications.)
-The flow rates of each of the 4 injectors I modified are very similar.

It looks like ev14 injectors can retain decent performance after being modified. (I will test more when I borrow some graduated cylinders and a high speed camera.)


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