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Old 08-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #41
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hmm is this considering the MAF not connected anymore, It should be fine supplying 12v to the FP line if the stock MAF is in place correct?
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:34 PM   #42
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its just a way to activate the fuel pump relay. you either add the ground to it in place of the AFM (no additional circuit, but extra wiring) or backfeed 12v to the relay to activate it.




back-feeding the 12 volts would be giving it 12v to the spot labeled ECU STA on the above diagram, the ground to the AFM isn't needed that way. make sense? you dont want to just give it 12v from the harness at 1B because then the pump will be running anytime the key is on.

techincally you can do the same by jumping F/P and GND in the diagnostics box, but it's not the right way.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:55 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you dont want to just give it 12v from the harness at 1B because then the pump will be running anytime the key is on.
Isn't this how most cars fuel pumps run anyways, I believe.

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Old 08-02-2010, 07:04 PM   #44
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Hondas generally prime the pump at key on, then the pump only runs when the engine is running.

Makes sense, don't need the pump running if the engine isn't.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Techsalvager View Post
Isn't this how most cars fuel pumps run anyways, I believe.

no, they use relays. the pump doesn't run with key on.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:48 PM   #46
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ok, well anyways I got it done and threw it into the car but seems trying to crank it I see no rpms, I checked my CAS pickup wiring on the harness I built to see if it was that, seems thats fine, so it must be the mods most likely. That or the pins are wired internally to a different pin for pickup compared to the harness.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:58 PM   #47
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mods look correct on board from what I can tell,
Whats the clutch for in the wiring, it shows it being wired up but looking at pinouts on the v1.01 board shows nothing connected on that line.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:14 PM   #48
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Heres a log file if anyone wants to check it out that may have more helpful insight, all I can think of off hand is its not picking up the CAS or there maybe more settings I forgot about, but I figure it should still be able to show the rpms with the correct trigger wheel settings.

thoughts? maybe it won't output unless some circuit is connected that I missed?
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File Type: xls datalog201008021523.xls (101.6 KB, 57 views)
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:43 PM   #49
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another useless question, why on the 1.6l standalone harness there is noted chassis ground and sensor ground and on the boomslange its just know as black ground. For my grounds I only put two to the chassis grounds and left sensor ground unconnected
1 cable to 3 grounds on the MS
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techsalvager View Post
Isn't this how most cars fuel pumps run anyways, I believe.
It's a safety feature. If you crash and rupture a fuel line, you don't want the pump to keep running. Burning to death is one of the shittier ways to go from what I understand.



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another useless question, why on the 1.6l standalone harness there is noted chassis ground and sensor ground and on the boomslange its just know as black ground. For my grounds I only put two to the chassis grounds and left sensor ground unconnected
1 cable to 3 grounds on the MS
The official, according-to-Hoyle nomenclature for the ground wires on the 1.6 ECU is as follows:
2A: Injector ground (goes to ground common JC-03)
2B: Output ground (goes to ground common JC-03)
2C: CPU ground (goes to ground common JC-02)
2D: Input (sensor) ground (goes to ground common JC-02)

Eventually, JC-02 and JC-03 wind up getting commoned together, and terminate at the ring lugs on the back of the intake manifold.

They key point is that the sensitive stuff (sensor and CPU ground) is kept separate from the noisy stuff (injector and output drivers) for as long as possible, right up until they common at the end.


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Heres a log file if anyone wants to check it out that may have more helpful insight, all I can think of off hand is its not picking up the CAS or there maybe more settings I forgot about, but I figure it should still be able to show the rpms with the correct trigger wheel settings.
From the log, I can tell you that it is seeing the second (CMP) signal at pin 11 of the ECU (PTC4, which is the 16's position, is toggling, as the decimal value of portc transitions between 3 and 19 while cranking) however it does not appear to be seeing the primary trigger.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:40 PM   #51
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I did a contunity test on it and my multimeter shows 1800~ on the cas line, measureing from where I put the resister on the diodes 5 and 9 to the pin on the db37 connector on the ecu, maybe this has to do with it?

though from pin 11 on the cpu to the db37 connector cas pin I get 0 so that is good

EDIT: nvm this crap, figured what that was about.

Still thinking, I need to monitor to see if 12v is coming though to the cas pickup

I was wondering if portc was that pickup, so is the other pickup another port to check for?

Last edited by Techsalvager; 08-02-2010 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Techsalvager View Post
I did a contunity test on it and my multimeter shows 1800~ on the cas line, measureing from where I put the resister on the diodes 5 and 9 to the pin on the db37 connector on the ecu, maybe this has to do with it?
Where are you measuring, exactly?

You should have a ~470 ohm resistor from the striped side of D5 to a source of +12 (the striped side of D9 is an acceptable source), and that's it. If you measure from the striped side of D5 to pin 24 of the DB-37, you should read ~330 ohms (the value of R10.) And from the striped side of D9 to pin 28 of the DB37 (the +12 source), you should see ~470 ohms. Take these measurements twice, with the probes in both orientations, to be sure you're not measuring through a semiconductor or some such BS.



Quote:
though from pin 11 on the cpu to the db37 connector cas pin I get 0 so that is good
That's odd. You should have a 1k resistor between pin 11 of the CPU and the pin on the DB-37 which you have CMP connected to. It's not strictly critical for operation, but it buffers the CPU slightly.



Quote:
EDIT: nvm this crap, figured what that was about.
Uhm, OK.



Quote:
I was wondering if portc was that pickup, so is the other pickup another port to check for?
It's more complicated than that.

Portc is a combination of five different pins at the CPU, one of which happens to be the pin that we use for CMP. In CS-speak, it can be thought of as a register. In order for it to make sense, you have to decode the decimal value in the log to binary, and then align the bit positions in the resultant binary number with the pins of the CPU that they correspond to.

On the "C" port, you are seeing pins 7 through 11, where pin 7 is PTC0 and pin 11 is PTC4.

During the binary-to-decimal conversion, PTC0 has a value of 1, PTC1 has a value of 2, PTC2 has a value of 4, PTC3 has a value of 8, and PTC4 has a value of 16.

So, for most of the log, portc is equal to 3. Decoded out, that's 0000011, where PTC0 is all the way on the right (least significant bit) and PTC7 (which doesn't exist) is all the way on the left (most significant bit.) So, PTC0 and PTC1 were high, and all others low for most of the log.

(For beginners, binary is most easily read from right to left, FYI. You start at a value of 1, and then double the value for each successive bit to the left. If there's a 1 in that bit position, you add its value to the total.)

Occasionally, while you were cranking, portc changed from 3 to 19. Decoded again that's 00010011, telling me that PTC0, PTC1 and PTC4 were high, and all others low. Since PTC4 is pin 11 of the CPU, and that's where CMP is connected, we know that the CPU was seeing activity from CMP.

Sadly, the primary trigger connects to the IRQ pin, which is not part of a register that we can see directly, however since RPM never deviated from 0 even a little bit, we can surmise that the CPU saw no activity on that pin.



Have I mentioned yet that you're nuts for building a 1.01 board?
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:36 PM   #53
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could this be the reason the CKP pickup isn't work seeing as I did the mod for the pcb2.2 and the coil schematics aren't exactly the same.

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Old 08-02-2010, 11:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Techsalvager View Post
could this be the reason the CKP pickup isn't work
Probably. You want this:

(image deleted. It was wrong.)

I'm choosing D9 at random. You can use anything that's connected directly to +12.

Last edited by Joe Perez; 08-03-2010 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:46 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Where are you measuring, exactly?

You should have a ~470 ohm resistor from the striped side of D5 to a source of +12 (the striped side of D9 is an acceptable source), and that's it. If you measure from the striped side of D5 to pin 24 of the DB-37, you should read ~330 ohms (the value of R10.) And from the striped side of D9 to pin 28 of the DB37 (the +12 source), you should see ~470 ohms. Take these measurements twice, with the probes in both orientations, to be sure you're not measuring through a semiconductor or some such BS.
ok I see I had the 470ohm attached to the non banded\stripped end of D5, that maybe the problem. from the banded end d5 to pin 24 is 330ohms. and yes its a 470ohms there, checked that correctly.



Quote:
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That's odd. You should have a 1k resistor between pin 11 of the CPU and the pin on the DB-37 which you have CMP connected to. It's not strictly critical for operation, but it buffers the CPU slightly.
yeah I wasn't aware of that, I will put one in

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It's more complicated than that.

Portc is a combination of five different pins at the CPU, one of which happens to be the pin that we use for CMP. In CS-speak, it can be thought of as a register. In order for it to make sense, you have to decode the decimal value in the log to binary, and then align the bit positions in the resultant binary number with the pins of the CPU that they correspond to.

On the "C" port, you are seeing pins 7 through 11, where pin 7 is PTC0 and pin 11 is PTC4.

During the binary-to-decimal conversion, PTC0 has a value of 1, PTC1 has a value of 2, PTC2 has a value of 4, PTC3 has a value of 8, and PTC4 has a value of 16.

So, for most of the log, portc is equal to 3. Decoded out, that's 0000011, where PTC0 is all the way on the right (least significant bit) and PTC7 (which doesn't exist) is all the way on the left (most significant bit.) So, PTC0 and PTC1 were high, and all others low for most of the log.

(For beginners, binary is most easily read from right to left, FYI. You start at a value of 1, and then double the value for each successive bit to the left. If there's a 1 in that bit position, you add its value to the total.)

Occasionally, while you were cranking, portc changed from 3 to 19. Decoded again that's 00010011, telling me that PTC0, PTC1 and PTC4 were high, and all others low. Since PTC4 is pin 11 of the CPU, and that's where CMP is connected, we know that the CPU was seeing activity from CMP.

Sadly, the primary trigger connects to the IRQ pin, which is not part of a register that we can see directly, however since RPM never deviated from 0 even a little bit, we can surmise that the CPU saw no activity on that pin.



Have I mentioned yet that you're nuts for building a 1.01 board?
I am nuts I guess, but I do appericcate the information and help from yall. I understand better whats going on.

Also I liked that spark output trigger setup you came up with to allow flashing the ecu with the igintor and coilpacks still in, think I will add that in later, first thing is first, get rpms\cas to pickup then fuel circuit.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:12 AM   #56
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Actually, I screwed that up. You don't want to go to D5, you need to go to the side of R10 which is away from D5:



If you can't figure out which side is which, it'll be the side of R10 which reads 0 ohms (full continuity) to pin 24.

The way I drew it originally wouldn't work because the CAS would be trying to pull through R10.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:22 AM   #57
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heh yeah I was wondering about going though R10 as on pcb 2.2 the otherside of D5 is straight shot to the db37. no problem, thanks for the update. gonna rework it tomorrow and test.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:37 AM   #58
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Background:

The CAS provides what are known as open-collector outputs. That means that it doe not output a voltage, rather it provides a closure to ground when active. It either conducts to ground or it does not.

So, we take +12 (such as from D9) and run it to the point indicated above on R10. When the CAS is inactive (not conducting to ground) the current flows through the 470 ohm resistor, then through R10, and then through the LED section of U4. This causes U4 to turn on.

When the CAS becomes active, it provides a short-circuit path to ground for the current flowing through the 470 ohm resistor. Instead of flowing through R10 and then U4, it takes the much easier path through the CAS. With no current flowing through U4, it turns off.

Coincidentally, this is how things are working on the CPU side of U4 as well. When the CAS is conducting to ground (and thus, U4 is "off"), current flows from Vcc, through R11, and shows up at IRQ-1, which is pin 14 of the CPU. It sees this as a logic "high."

When the CAS becomes inactive (no longer conducting) thus causing U4 to turn on, the current flowing through R11 instead takes a short-circuit path to ground through the transistor portion of U4, which causes the voltage at IRQ-1 to fall to zero (well, not exactly zero, but it's a long story involving semiconductors and forward voltage drop, and suffice to say that it's close enough.)

C11 can be ignored in this simplistic explanation.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:15 AM   #59
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ok new info, done the mods, 12v to r10 and 1k on the cpu pin 11 to db37 line.

Still same but more info.

When key is on, I get 5.45 volts reading after the 470ohm to the db37, while cranking the car i get a drop to 4.24 volts

Gonna attach all ground wires and go from there.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:56 PM   #60
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still no rpms or pickup, just voltage change while cranking
edited hmmm

Any other thoughts. Maybe bad wiring on the pcb or bad joint?
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File Type: xls new4.xls (24.3 KB, 48 views)
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