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Old 01-09-2013, 10:06 AM   #1
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Default MS3 MAP setting FYI

In case this happened to anyone else. At some point while upgrading my firmware I did not realize the MAP sample settings had changed.

Mine was set on "use event min" instead of "Use event average". it appears to have been causing a stumble here and there at idle.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:21 AM   #2
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Props
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:26 AM   #3
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good to know. I'm jumping from an older beta (pre1.1 b24 IIRC) firmware to the 1.2.0 release this weekend.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:00 AM   #4
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Make sure you convert your old mat correction table values to new table. Also need to change your boost control from inverted to normal, or whatever the setting is called.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:24 AM   #5
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well crap!

I need to go over change logs I suppose.

Can you quickly explain the differences cause im too lazy to search?


Another thing I'll be doing is joining the "incorporate AFR" club once I install the MS3pro, as I've been told the way we've been typically tuning the VE Table without it, while it works, is old, dated, and harder to tune.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #6
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OK, you explain to me the "incorporate AFR" and I'll explain the other changes.

Boost control: Higher duty now equals higher boost. Most of us ran our settings "inverted" so that this was the case anyway. The code has now changed that you need to switch from "inverted" to "normal" in the boost control settings.

MAT correction: The gas law, and correction factor are no longer behind the scenes. The default values in the table represent the gas law with a 100% correction. We corrected away from this by using 50% correction and adjusted the MAT correction table to make Gair 100. If the new default table is 110% at 60 degrees and you were using a correction factor of 0 on your old table at 60 degrees. then the new table value should be changed to 105% if you were using a 50% correction factor. If you had been using a plus 1% correction in the MAT table with a 50% correction factor then your new value would be 106%.

As stated earlier, use the "Use event average" as your MAP setting.

I also want to say that there has been a change to the accelerator enrichment resolution. I think the increments are finer.

I believe these were the major changes that would have a serious impact on your current tune if you updated the firmware and didn't know about the changes.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:42 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
OK, you explain to me the "incorporate AFR" and I'll explain the other changes.
From digging around, the technical explanation by jsmcortina is:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...=44790#p318988

What it translates to in plain English (to the best of my understanding), is by including your AFR table in the calculation for the VE table, once you get your VE table tuned properly you can change your AFR and the ecu can automatically adjust without needing to re-tune the VE table.

In other words, if you tune your boost range for 11.0 AFR, and get it dialed in with Incorporate AFRTarget, you could later change it to 11.8 and the ecu would automagically know what values are necessary and would immediately change the AFR to 11.8 without having to run auto-tune again.

That's how I understood it to work, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm right, it's probably a good idea to turn it on. Only downside is it means re-tuning the entire VE table.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:06 PM   #8
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I'm going to quote myself here:

Quote:
It does kinda what it says: it incorporates the AFR table as part of the fueling algorithm.

So you'll make an AFR targets table you are happy with, then when you start tuning, your fuel map with start becoming very "one-dimensional." I'm not sure that's the best word to describe, but you'll start to see the numbers will all be very close in value, not like a traditional fuel map you've probably been used to seeing. You might see a -/+10% swing in values [A more true VE table, not a PW table].

IIRC the code is something like [Stoich / Target AFR] x VE% + enrichments = PW

So If you want to target 12.0:1 afr, then the fueling would be like 14.7 / 12 = 1.225 x VE%, or in english: you'd be demanding 122.5% more fuel over the VE value in the fuel map.

Then if say you decide that you want to cruise a bit leaner or something, or add more fuel in boost, you simply change the AFR Targets, and if the fuel map is correctly tuned, you should just be able to demand the AFR Target you want to hit and you should be able to achieve it without tuning the fuel map.
I'm going to have to start from scratch, but it should be easier to demand any targeted AFR once tuned.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
Boost control: Higher duty now equals higher boost. Most of us ran our settings "inverted" so that this was the case anyway. The code has now changed that you need to switch from "inverted" to "normal" in the boost control settings.
simple enough, probably cause everyone complained about the way it was written, as it was the wastegate duty, not the solenoid duty.

Quote:
MAT correction: The gas law, and correction factor are no longer behind the scenes. The default values in the table represent the gas law with a 100% correction. We corrected away from this by using 50% correction and adjusted the MAT correction table to make Gair 100. If the new default table is 110% at 60 degrees and you were using a correction factor of 0 on your old table at 60 degrees. then the new table value should be changed to 105% if you were using a 50% correction factor. If you had been using a plus 1% correction in the MAT table with a 50% correction factor then your new value would be 106%.
Okay, that makes sense, it's more like a ASE or Warmup table now with the total correction number.

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I also want to say that there has been a change to the accelerator enrichment resolution. I think the increments are finer.
the accel-pump? I'm already using that.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJP0tato View Post
In other words, if you tune your boost range for 11.0 AFR, and get it dialed in with Incorporate AFRTarget, you could later change it to 11.8 and the ecu would automagically know what values are necessary and would immediately change the AFR to 11.8 without having to run auto-tune again.
Huh, I'd missed that part.

It's official. The MS3 is now the coolest ECU ever.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:08 PM   #11
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I've never used it, cause I always thought it was something that would be used best with narrowband target 14.7 most of the time, but apparently Ken and James both think I'm stupid for not using it.

but that's the idea, once the VE table is populated, any change in AFR demanded is as simple as changing the AFR targets becuase of the algorithm.

You want to hit 16 in cruise instead of 14.7, change the targets, the end no additional tuning required. Getting your initial VE table with VEAL works as normal.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Huh, I'd missed that part.

It's official. The MS3 is now the coolest ECU ever.
I was under the impression the MS2 can use it also.
:Still has MS3 envy:
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I've never used it, cause I always thought it was something that would be used best with narrowband target 14.7 most of the time, but apparently Ken and James both think I'm stupid for not using it.

but that's the idea, once the VE table is populated, any change in AFR demanded is as simple as changing the AFR targets becuase of the algorithm.

You want to hit 16 in cruise instead of 14.7, change the targets, the end no additional tuning required. Getting your initial VE table with VEAL works as normal.
This is really cool and exactly how maf based subarus (basically all of them including yours) have it set up.

Once you set up your fuel table once, you're done.
The rest handled with mass airflow scale.
If OEM's do it, I'm sure its not dumb
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:33 PM   #14
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I was under the impression the MS2 can use it also.
Doesn't matter. MS2 will never be as cool as MS3, because good is dumb.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
This is really cool and exactly how maf based subarus (basically all of them including yours) have it set up.

Once you set up your fuel table once, you're done.
The rest handled with mass airflow scale.
If OEM's do it, I'm sure its not dumb
I was acutally going to suggest you tune your ms3 in this method. But it's currently not setup that way. you'll have to completely retune the base fuel map.

good thing is, as more of us start moving over to it (I think a lot of Reverant's customers are) we can probably share VE tables to get similar motors "close" to start out with.


i believe this feature has been available in ms2 for a few years now.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Doesn't matter. MS2 will never be as cool as MS3, because good is dumb.




BIG QUESTION: if my car is sold (but still in my posession), do I bother updating this stuff?
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:42 AM   #17
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The more I read about this incorporate AFR target the more I feel the dumb for not using it earlier.

I like the idea of tuning boost at a very safe AFR and then not having to run the gauntlet of slowly tuning leaner and leaner, just change to your desired AFR and bam, done.

Same for cruise/economy tuning.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:09 AM   #18
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I know teh feel.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:12 AM   #19
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Well I told you at least one time that I use it for like 3 years now and really like it...

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...problem-66118/

Here I had a very dumb selfmade problem -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
or it could be your include AFRTarget under general setting > load parameters. I dont use that...cant remember off hte topic of my head how that calculation works, but iirc it causes pretty high valued VE% numbers in boost.
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
did you trying removing "include AFRTarget"???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
I have the include AFR running since years with MS2 and the DIYPNP...
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
oh okay, nevermind. its something most people dont use.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:24 AM   #20
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I was confusing that with multiply map in that discussion but still, the way I read about it at first made me assume it was something that people using NB sensors were doing or something. I never really saw much discussion on it msextra, or ever saw fuel maps that were tuned with it, so I never learned about it.

it wasn't until, *cringe*, techsalvager kept bring it up recently where I started doing more reading on it, and talking to Ken and James and realizing it was probably something we all should be doing.
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