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Old 01-24-2008, 03:07 AM   #41
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I don't care what he is, really. If he does what I said, and just measures what's at the coils, then it's got to be wrong, or they'd be firing. He already showed the coils are good.

Doubting a test you did will only have you walking in circles. :-)
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Old 01-24-2008, 04:44 AM   #42
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I mean, heres what I did.

Took the PC Power supply. Ground, +12 volts, +5 volts. Hooked a momentary contact push button switch up between the trigger on the coil and +5 volts. Used the wiring that I installed on the car even to test this with, so I know for a fact the wiring should be 100%. When I press that button I get spark, Every time without a delay. Immediately unhooked the wire from the switch and hooked up to Megasquirt, running off the SAME +12/GND from the power supply.. Touched trigger output from MS to the trigger wire I just tested. No spark.

Any chance you can do me a favor? I realize that voltage and frequency are different things.. I don't have an electrical engineering degree (Yet, anyway) but I'm just curious about something.

Hook MS Up to the stimulator and stim for wheel. Crank the RPM to max (I read 36000rpm) and measure with a DVM the voltage output of each spark channel. Now, While I understand that the Oscilloscope claims its a 5 volt trigger the MOST my meter shows is 2 volts, and pulse frequency is different than solid voltage... but I just want to satisfy my curiosity... I'm going to head back to my brothers office tomorrow and use his boss' $70,000.00 microprocessor controlled calibration scope to 100% check the voltage output instead of the 400$ one I've been playing with. I'm starting to maybe lean twards MS's spark outputs aren't on the up and up. As for software, I went back through and checked everything spark setting wise 4 or 5 times with the software mods I got from DIY and they all match. Maybe the next step is reflash the firmware and check it again? Long shot, but I'm willing to do anything right now to get this running.
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:46 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
When I press that button I get spark, Every time without a delay.
You get a spark when you press the button, or when you release the button?
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Old 01-24-2008, 03:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
I mean, heres what I did.

Took the PC Power supply. Ground, +12 volts, +5 volts. Hooked a momentary contact push button switch up between the trigger on the coil and +5 volts. Used the wiring that I installed on the car even to test this with, so I know for a fact the wiring should be 100%. When I press that button I get spark, Every time without a delay. Immediately unhooked the wire from the switch and hooked up to Megasquirt, running off the SAME +12/GND from the power supply.. Touched trigger output from MS to the trigger wire I just tested. No spark.

Any chance you can do me a favor? I realize that voltage and frequency are different things.. I don't have an electrical engineering degree (Yet, anyway) but I'm just curious about something.

Hook MS Up to the stimulator and stim for wheel. Crank the RPM to max (I read 36000rpm) and measure with a DVM the voltage output of each spark channel. Now, While I understand that the Oscilloscope claims its a 5 volt trigger the MOST my meter shows is 2 volts, and pulse frequency is different than solid voltage... but I just want to satisfy my curiosity... I'm going to head back to my brothers office tomorrow and use his boss' $70,000.00 microprocessor controlled calibration scope to 100% check the voltage output instead of the 400$ one I've been playing with. I'm starting to maybe lean twards MS's spark outputs aren't on the up and up. As for software, I went back through and checked everything spark setting wise 4 or 5 times with the software mods I got from DIY and they all match. Maybe the next step is reflash the firmware and check it again? Long shot, but I'm willing to do anything right now to get this running.
Generally, if you can't do it with a $8 voltmeter, a $25,000 won't do it either. Except you might break the meter and have to sell your car to get it repaired. Oh, it's 70. All the beter reason not to mess with it. :-)

Odds are very good that you're looking with a digital voltmeter at a time varying signal. Basically, your voltmeter is seeing a pulse-width-modulation control. The easy way to think about it is it've averaging .3 seconds of 0V with .2 seconds of 5V. DMM's are almost always horibbaly slow. Don't worry about it.

Please try what I said. The MS puts out 5V, if it doesn't, that's what you need to fix. If you don't understand what I'm saying tell me, I'll draw you a picture. This was VERY easy for me to do in my garage in like ten minutes and it answered all my questions. You don't need to throw money at the problem, you need to learn how it works then it will be easy. You have all the tools you need (though a very small screwdriver would help.

Worst case, you can take your signals off the OEM Mazda plug and run wires over. It's really very easy, and then you'll know what to blame. Unless your goal is to drive around with a power inverter plugged into the cigarette jack, and a PC power supply in your footwell. :-)

LASTLY, if your power supply and MS weren't sharing grounds, then the 5V won't matter, and SHOULDN'T trigger it. This is a free EE lesson: Voltages are relative. Don't dink around, hook it up to the MS and let's make it work.



Quote:
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You get a spark when you press the button, or when you release the button?
It doesn't matter. The coils are good. An equally useful question: Is it a normally open or normally closed button? :-)
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:50 PM   #45
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Okay update again. I was about to type out another long post then just said F-it and wanted to try another power source.

Upgraded to a 50amp 12 volt power supply. Hooked both MS and single coil up, started power and touched the coils trigger wire to the output lead I soldered onto the stimulator. Spark spark spark spark spark spark spark! BOTH WORK!!!!!! That computer power supply just didn't have big enough ***** for MS to kick off the coil.

Still won't start on the car. Finished making this really ghetto bracket, bolted the coils in, tried to start. Nothing. Have +12 volts, cont to GND on ALL FOUR coils, then checked the trigger with my multimeter while cranking. The trigger to all four coils has signal, checked both voltage and frequency with my DVM.

HOWEVER.... When I'm cranking (and its around 8 degrees ambient temp right now...) the +12 volt on the coils drops to EIGHT FARKING VOLTS!!! I'm 100% positive they won't fire at 8 volts! WTF!? I slap on my battery charger with 100 amp start booster going, still won't maintain higher than 9 volts during cranking. Kind of looks like I need to run a dedicated fused and relay switched power source from the battery to the coil packs??
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:21 PM   #46
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Well, this is the last time I'll bother with this. Try hooking it up like I said.

My guess is they will fire just fine at 8 V. My car starts when I'm at 9V while cranking.

I've told you a test you can run that actually MEANS something.
<edit>
You've already almost got it, just touching the wire on at 5V will tell you all you need to know. But please just use the MS for all of it. You won't have to run wires or anything weird. I did add a stronger ground when I was having issues, but the only thing that ever helped was tapping 5V like I said.
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:33 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Okay update again. I was about to type out another long post then just said F-it and wanted to try another power source.

Upgraded to a 50amp 12 volt power supply. Hooked both MS and single coil up, started power and touched the coils trigger wire to the output lead I soldered onto the stimulator. Spark spark spark spark spark spark spark! BOTH WORK!!!!!! That computer power supply just didn't have big enough ***** for MS to kick off the coil.

Still won't start on the car. Finished making this really ghetto bracket, bolted the coils in, tried to start. Nothing. Have +12 volts, cont to GND on ALL FOUR coils, then checked the trigger with my multimeter while cranking. The trigger to all four coils has signal, checked both voltage and frequency with my DVM.

HOWEVER.... When I'm cranking (and its around 8 degrees ambient temp right now...) the +12 volt on the coils drops to EIGHT FARKING VOLTS!!! I'm 100% positive they won't fire at 8 volts! WTF!? I slap on my battery charger with 100 amp start booster going, still won't maintain higher than 9 volts during cranking. Kind of looks like I need to run a dedicated fused and relay switched power source from the battery to the coil packs??
I basically did EXACTLY what you wanted me to for the test! Thats using Megasquirt to trigger the coils, with the spark output A and B FIRING THE COIL! I Had NOTHING to do with the coil firing, that was the spark output FROM megasquirt making the coil fire on the bench! If that test means nothing then I give up and you can have my entire car and everything I own!
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:42 PM   #48
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Here... I drew a picture of what I did.



Megasquirt was using the 2222 driver from the LED to trigger the coil, Not me with some mythical benchtop +5 volt power source I pulled from my ***. I also tested ALL five volt sources inside mgasquirt and they're all 5.02 volts..
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:00 AM   #49
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are you changing your ignition settings in MS back from Stim mode when you have it in the car?

(It is a stupid question, but it could happen)....
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:24 AM   #50
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Stim Mode? Uh, oh, I think I'm out of my depth here. You wacky MS-I people.

Anyway, not trying to be a total ***... But you should do it all on the car, just to be consistant. It doesn't take all that much power to fire the coils. And since doing it with your fingers will mean long dwell times, they will charge even if you're a volt or two short.



It's very similar to what you did, but just do everything on the car. I'd unplug all coils but one (so you don't fry them) then "invert" the spark output so you have 5V all the time. Don't run the car, and just tap it. If it works, you KNOW it's a software thing.

That's the most important test. You know the coils are good, so it's either wiring or software.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:02 AM   #51
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^^^ what he said would definitely prove if all is well (makes sense now)
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:27 AM   #52
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Okay, I think I understand what you're saying..

Yeah, MS1 doens't have output test mode.. kinda wish it did meow.

Its supposed to be a lot warmer tomorrow, like 39 degrees so I'll see what I can do. Came up with another test that I'll try after yours. If your test checks out on the car, I've got a spare CAS laying around.. I'll plug in teh CAS and turn ignition on, turn the CAS and the coils should spark....... I hope... This seems like a bad ground or bad battery, but my batterys 100% charged now.

I'll figure it out, I'm fuggin determined. Thanks for the help everyones given so far!
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:48 AM   #53
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I saw someone do that, a drill motor got the cas turning 250 rpm, my car cranks right there, so I guess it's a good speed. The MS-II works down to about 50 rpm. And don't forget to switch the coils back after my little test. I'd hate to see more coils burn cause of bad wiring. But don't be too worried about it, they can get pretty hot before they fail. Just touch them once a minute or so to make sure they aren't getting hot. Good luck!
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:42 PM   #54
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I seriously give up.


Manually turning CAS gives me fuel pump, fuel pressure, injectors firing, IAC valve going... NOT ******* SPARK!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats with 12 ******* volts at the + input of the coils!

And its colder than *****, spending enough time to unhook my engines CAS, hook up another one, remove one coil from the spark plug and turn the ignition on my fingers are numb and I can't stay outside any longer. God I hate the midwest, this is bullshit. It was supposed to be 39 degrees today. More like 29. ------ weather bastards.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:39 PM   #55
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Two things:
1 - did you try the test I said? Have you actually seen it spark with the car providing all voltages and signals (except you tapping the signal line like I said, but the voltage is provided by the MS on the MS pin with the MS circuits, etc)

2) Use a drill! You'll wear out your fingers like that. :-\

It sucks it's giving you so much trouble. But you need to know it's firing with the MS and your wiring 100% for sure first.

When you know that, it's a software issue, which you can fix in your nice warm home. Good luck.


I don't know how this applies, but I had a very similar issue, with a bad burn on my MS-II. It didn't make sense, but the plugs wouldn't fire. This is exactly the sort of thing the hardware test I've suggested 5 or more times would confirm.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:28 PM   #56
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Okay, I did your test first thing.

On the car I Unhooked all but one coil. Removed from the harness the trigger for 1/4. Inverted spark in megatune, checked for 4 volts at the coils connector, plugged in one coil. Key on, engine off.. pushed the trigger wire back into the harness and it sparked. Will note also, along with the spark the fuel pump triggered, injectors primed, and megatunes connection reset.. Dunno wtf that was about.

Right now I've pulled it back out of the car to reflash the firmware. God I hope this fixes it, because I've no freaking clue after that.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:05 PM   #57
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Yeah I'm lost. Reflashed firmware, still won't fire the coils during cranking or turning the CAS manually. Watching RPM on megatune while turning CAS with my fingers and its spinning the engine at 300 or so RPM, which is pretty close to cranking.

Adjusted cranking dwell for ignition, made no difference. Checked again with one coil hooked up inverting the spark, sparks everytime.

Should I mention that it sparks when I touch the trigger to the pin, and not when I remove it??
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:43 PM   #58
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That seems weird, I think it should spark when you remove it - but I was so nervous doing mine that I can't remember when it sparked.

It does sound like the hardware is CAPABLE of running it. I know my car was acting weird and adding more grounds helped (though in the end I got rid of most of them). Try this: Unplug your wideband if you have one - that's less load on the line to the computer. And add a ground right to the head on teh ground line back from the coils. I doubt it'll do a lot.

As a last desperate measure, try setting the "cranking speed" down to like 50, see if it behaves.

It looks like either a power/ground issue, or a software issue. If it's software, I won't be much help since I don't know MS-I very well. But the good news is your wiring and your coils are fine.
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Old 01-26-2008, 06:37 PM   #59
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I've got a weird update.

1/4 are wired together, 2/3 wired together. Waste fire.

If I have 1 and 2 hooked up, turning the CAS externally by hand, they'll both fire. If I hook up 3 and 4 none of them fire. It looks like maybe the TRIGGER signal isn't strong enough to light off these coils?

I have a pair of VB921 FETs I can install.. Wonder if that'd help?
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Old 01-26-2008, 07:28 PM   #60
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You shouldn't have to. I did change the drivers for those LED's to 2n2222's instead of the much smaller parts that are in them. I guess you could check the current on that line, but as I understand it, the coils use field effect transistors which don't use any current at all.

Do 3 and 4 work alone?

At least you are making progress.
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