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Old 07-24-2012, 02:42 PM   #1
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Unhappy Where's my power? (maps inside)

Hey guys. Some of you guys may know me, I've been around for ages now. Have been running 8psi on my miata forever on this map, just recently I've decided I want to get the most power out of this motor - I have plans for a BP swap and new turbo setup sometime this winter, but for now I need to optimize my car as-is.

FIRST my setup. 1.6l with 150's compression on a cheapo gauge, only a fluctuation of about 5psi across the board when i did a wet test, burns oil only on heavy vac/decel. Greddy mani/turbo, turbotony 2.5" downpipe, 2.5" 'topspeed" exhaust (some kind of greddy ripoff, flow seems good though as its barely even has a muffler), 550cc rx7 inj, MS1 (mspnp) stock firmware, ebay FMIC, custom piping.

Anyways I've been running a map from another semi-local member here for about 2 years with no detonation that I've been able to see/hear. I just ran one of my logs through the virtual dyno here, and came up with a whopping 160whp @10psi.



Now, keep in mind I live at 7,000+ ft altitude. Because of this my barometric pressure is around 80KPA at ambient, thus the 10psi I'm running is only 150KPA total. Cars at my altitude are typically down 20% or so on power, naturally aspirated cars taking an bigger hit than turbo ones. To make the above, this was the log I used:



As you can see, the graph peaks at around 160KPA and drop to about 150KPA by redline. This is a peak of about 11.5psi and drops to about 10psi. Correcting for altitude, I expect close to 180whp from this. Is that too much to expect?

Here you can see my current timing map:


Here are my AFR targets, it's tuned pretty well to these using VEA live in tunerstudio:


Hopefully this is enough info to give me insight. I've compared my timing map to some random ones in other threads, and honestly it seems pretty advanced.

PLEASE let me know if i can provide you guys any more info to help me get some more power out of this. I'd be happy if i could get it up to 170whp level on 10psi at my altitude. I'll provide a datalog, and my .msq if anyone has any interest in looking at that at all. I provided screenshots to make it easier for everyone to take a quick look.

Thanks gays,
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:48 PM   #2
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your timing map sucks. and your turbo spools like donkey.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
your timing map sucks. and your turbo spools like donkey.
This I know =(. I'm hoping one is related to the other, and I can get some help from this thread.

What exactly should I do about my timing map? A little more details if you can, scott.. please?

Full boost is seen at 4300rpms in 4th gear.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:07 PM   #4
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you need more timing in boost between 1800-5200. you're dramatically retarding timing as you enter boost.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:18 PM   #5
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Stock greddy wastegate? Wastegate signal source?
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Stock greddy wastegate? Wastegate signal source?
Stock wastegate with 10lb helper spring, sourced from coldside of IC pipes, with turboxs MBC. No matter what wont hold over 10psi at redline, looking into a replacement gate for it.

All IC pipes have been pressure tested to about 30psi, no turbo>manifold leaks as far as I can tell ( i tested by clogging the exhaust and using soapy water around the turbo/mani while it was cold. ).

I'm working on a new timing map now. Scott, I see you offered this timing map in another thread, is this only for low compression motors, or can i use this on my internally stock 1.6?

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Old 07-24-2012, 05:28 PM   #7
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more or less what i run on my car. give me a sec and ill post my map.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:31 PM   #8
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maybe start with this:

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Where's my power? (maps inside)-spark_map_july2012_base.jpg  
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:37 PM   #9
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Excellent. Will work on making my map similar. I'll report back with results.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:49 PM   #10
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New timing map I came up with from referencing yours.

[IMG][/IMG]

Going to give it a shot after work here in about an hour.

Holy ---- was my map different, guess that's why you don't run questionable maps unless you know what you're doing. New map looks much more retarded on the top end, strange i never saw det.
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Where's my power? (maps inside)-fireindc-1875-albums-b6t-t15g-504-picture-newtimingmapmtnet-2570.png  
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:56 PM   #11
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Damn that's a big difference up top...interested to hear how it feels up there. How are you monitoring detonation?
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:06 PM   #12
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you're going to have to retune fuel, you were really advance in cruise for no reason.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
Damn that's a big difference up top...interested to hear how it feels up there. How are you monitoring detonation?
I'm using my ears, and my old style "real" oil pressure gauge to watch for knock. Will have some logs to check out this evening. Thanks guys.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:50 PM   #14
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Okay, I started running the above timing map last night. Got fuel tuned in on it, it actually added a few points of fuel across the topend because of the change. boost is holding better to redline and doesnt drop off like it did. T turbo doesnt seem to spool much faster though. Will have a datalog tonight that I can pull a virtual dyno graph from to see the differences.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:55 PM   #15
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greddy turbo doesn't spool crazy well unless you have a good exhaust and take care of the shitty wastegate.

but there was no reason to have all that advance in cruise.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:03 PM   #16
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Yeah, new timing map was definitely an improvement. Thanks Scott. It actually holds boost to redline which was my main grievance. The exhaust I have is decent, doesnt seem to flow any worse than my 2.5 inch enthuza exhaust that was a straight pipe (no muffler) and quieted it down a bit. Keep in mind air is thinner up here so spool is certainly effected by that.

Will have another log to graph out tonight, going to try to keep the same boost levels as my last log, maybe im at 170+whp now.. maybe not. Hard to tell just by the butt dyno.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Turbo doesnt seem to spool much faster though.
Talking out my *** here: Shouldn't the turbo spool slower or at best the same? If your timing is more advanced that's more energy being put into driving the pistons, and less being pushed out the exhaust to spool up the turbo?

I've heard of guys running their timing pulled way back to spool off the line faster in drag racing applications. Dunno how "true" the theory is though, maybe someone will chime in.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:46 PM   #18
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you need to retard aggressively + dump in ---- tons of fuel to see the turbo spool faster really.

the added timing will increase his power output regardless of the turbo spool.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:06 PM   #19
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Brain,

Are you targeting a richer afr in the region that your turbo is spooling?
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:35 PM   #20
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Is that a WOT pull in the middle of your datalog? Granted, I've never driven my car above 10 feet of elevation, but 93kpa @ 3200rpms seems horrible. The graph doesn't look like it hits full boost until ~5000rpms. I remember a LONGGG time ago reading a great thread about a "helper spring" to keep a weak wastegate closed. That may significantly help power under the curve.
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