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Old 07-25-2012, 08:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
Brain,

Are you targeting a richer afr in the region that your turbo is spooling?
not really. i probably should, but i stay around 13.0:1 in low boost, and 11.8 everything above 4psi.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
Is that a WOT pull in the middle of your datalog? Granted, I've never driven my car above 10 feet of elevation, but 93kpa @ 3200rpms seems horrible. The graph doesn't look like it hits full boost until ~5000rpms. I remember a LONGGG time ago reading a great thread about a "helper spring" to keep a weak wastegate closed. That may significantly help power under the curve.
It is WOT. With the ignition on and the laptop hooked up, my map sensor reads 77KPA. Effectively WOT on my car with no boost it would hit 77KPA maximum, so anything above the 77KPA mark is positive pressure. The 93KPA at 3200 rpm's is actually about 2.1PSI above atmospheric. Yeah altitude is a bitch..

Full boost is between 4300-4500 rpm, it sucks. I have a helper spring installed, I've done pressure testing on my IC setup with no leaks, and I've checked and fixed a pre-turbo leak. It still spools like ***.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:42 PM   #23
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Just got off work. Will return tonight with some fresh datalogs with the new timing map.

Edit: No time for datalogs today after all, will get them asap though and update the thread for those interested.

Last edited by Fireindc; 07-26-2012 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:29 PM   #24
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not really. i probably should, but i stay around 13.0:1 in low boost, and 11.8 everything above 4psi.
So your AFRs never drop below 11.8:1? What fuel are you using?
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:31 PM   #25
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93 octane. hitting 13-14psi. 16 timing at full load.
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:26 PM   #26
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Thanks!
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #27
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Alright, new 3rd gear pull attached. Now I haven't been able to get this damn thing to graph out in virtual dyno again. I open the file in openoffice calc (excel equiv) and it doesn't put all the different rows in order, it's kind of just jumbled.

Maybe someone can graph this for me? It's pretty obvious where the pull is, it's 3rd gear pull and part of 4th.

I can say it feels more.. linear at the very least. This is around 160kpa peak in that gear, holding boost way better with the new map as it only falls to 155kpa towards redline. I Only pulled to 6600 it seems. I always feel like i'm revving it higher due to the inaccurate tach. I need to get more used to that and really rev it out.

I found that if i try to run any more boost it started missing. I think spark blowout, didn't seem like it was knocking at all and afrs were good until it misses. Not running out of fuel I'm barely over 50% duty cycle.

Anyways so far it feels better so thanks Scott, I love uyo too
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File Type: msl 3pullnewmap.msl (144.0 KB, 65 views)
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:58 PM   #28
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Yeah I'm not getting it to open correctly in Excel. You've rows, but no columns. Not sure what to do about that. I opened it as a text file and it looks the same as the pull I graphed the other day, but in Excel it's all screwy. Maybe it didn't save correctly?

Next time, pull it from ~2Krpm til you bounce off the rev limiter in third, and don't sweat fourth.

What's your plug gap? Have you played with that at all to get rid of the blowout?
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
Yeah I'm not getting it to open correctly in Excel. You've rows, but no columns. Not sure what to do about that. I opened it as a text file and it looks the same as the pull I graphed the other day, but in Excel it's all screwy. Maybe it didn't save correctly?

Next time, pull it from ~2Krpm til you bounce off the rev limiter in third, and don't sweat fourth.

What's your plug gap? Have you played with that at all to get rid of the blowout?
I gapped the plugs down into the .30's already just to get it to not misfire on the boost level it's at now. I'm probably going to need to upgrade the ignition system sometime. COPs still seem like the way to go for the most part.

Strange enough the other log I had you graph (and you did just fine) also did the same thing when I opened it in excel. I have no idea. I'll try to get another log soon.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #30
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you guys are fail.



much better results.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #31
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AH! Weird, so this is what mine came up with. Question though.. when it asks "final drive" I should tell it what my rear end is, right? I'm running a 4.1 torsen rear, so I put in 4.1 in the final drive box, had it plot it, and got this:
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Where's my power? (maps inside)-fireindc-1875-albums-b6t-t15g-504-picture-dynoresults1-2571.png  

Last edited by Fireindc; 07-27-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #32
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oh, i used 4.3. i applied the smoothing to match your first plot and the weight and tire diameter... come on.


4.1:1 gives you this:

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Old 07-27-2012, 05:55 PM   #33
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Man, so my first plot was off too, need to relog that one with the 4.1 rear. Stupid me didn't realize that parameter was there, and how important it is.

Edit: ahh Mucho better. That's about right for 11.5psi for my altitude. Thanks again for help on the map, I can feel a difference in low end power as well.

Weight I assume is around 2400 with me in it, maybe less? It's a fully loaded 1990, ripped out the A/C, soft top, and spare tire. Added a roll bar, hardtop, and turbo kit. And I weigh around 180. Gotta be close to that. 4.1 rear, tires are 215/40/16 which using their calc gives me 22.77 for tire height. Anyways 180-190hp sounds more like what I expected, so that's good.

HERE is the comparison.

12HP from that map, boost untouched. Almost exactly the same boost level, BUT due to the old timing map boost was dropping to 150kpa by redline. Now it's holding the 160 much better, only dropping to 157 by redline.

Looks like one part of the graph has less power than the old map, but I'm very surprised of that considering how much timing I PULLED out with brains map. How was my car not detonating? I guess high altitude has it's advantages, cause my ---- didnt blow up.

HP is still climbing to redline with the new map, and it plummets with the old one.

Last edited by Fireindc; 07-27-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:51 PM   #34
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Nice when ***** goes right, yeah? Glad the timing bump worked out. Keep playing with it til you knock then bring it back a couple degrees for safety, you'll see even more gains. I've been basically advancing my entire map 1* at a time until I see knock, then pull it out at those places, retest at those settings, repeat. I'm 4+* more advanced everywhere except onset of peak boost (and that's up 2*) than I was when I started, with no knock and more room to go as far as I can tell.

I'm gapped down to .029-.030, idle is smooth, and no blowout at 12-13psi (but I'm using a DSM coilpack). When do the stock Miata coils usually give up?

What did you do to the logfile to make virtual dyno happy?
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
Nice when ***** goes right, yeah? Glad the timing bump worked out. Keep playing with it til you knock then bring it back a couple degrees for safety, you'll see even more gains. I've been basically advancing my entire map 1* at a time until I see knock, then pull it out at those places, retest at those settings, repeat. I'm 4+* more advanced everywhere except onset of peak boost (and that's up 2*) than I was when I started, with no knock and more room to go as far as I can tell.

I'm gapped down to .029-.030, idle is smooth, and no blowout at 12-13psi (but I'm using a DSM coilpack). When do the stock Miata coils usually give up?

What did you do to the logfile to make virtual dyno happy?
I was driving the car around tonight and I noticed 2 main things. First it spools more linerally, when its spooling between 3-4k it climbs gradually, before it almost seemed to get stuck at 5psi then jump up to 10-12. This is nice for cornering and cruising in general. The other thing I noticed is it definitely has a bit more topend and likes to be revved out more.

I know the stock coils will blow out anywhere from 10psi to 15+psi. I've read of some people having luck and getting 250whp on stock coils, and others having issues much quicker. I'm not sure what the definitive "limit" is, but maybe someone else can chime in there - I'm curious as well. I'm going to keep my eye out and look for some COPS soon. I plan on going BP sometime (really, whenever I finally come across one for a decent price), but figure I can swap the COPS over and want them anyways.

What are you using for knock detection when tuning? Since this is my "learning" motor, maybe I will try to get a good knock detector and street tune the timing map a bit.

All I had to do to my logfile was delete all the other data(and leave only the pull), and then I changed all the TPS values in that pull to 100, then I deleted the header and saved it as a .csv file. Works like a charm.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:20 PM   #36
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I forgot to mention earlier that my plugs are BKR7es-11, if that matters to anyone reading this lol.

I'm using the built-in native knock detection in the GVR4 ecu I'm running. The standard detection feature automatically pulls timing based on how much knock is seen, and with the software I'm using I have also set up the CEL light to illuminate when a certain knock threshold is met/sustained, and I can log knock as well, making it pretty easy to know where to pull timing out of the map. It is essentially the same ecu found in DSMs as well, and uses a knock sensor that screws into the block. On the B6 there are a couple places on the intake side where it fits, one of which is where the 323GTX knock sensor was placed (which looks identical to the DSM sensor). Mine is down lower, in the hole where the intake mani brace bolted on.

Thanks for the log info. I just assumed it would not work at all without distinct columns. With your new tune and corrected graphs, looks like our cars might perform pretty similarly.
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:04 PM   #37
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Good work there Fire!

I've got a write-up on electronic det cans here that might help you:

https://www.miataturbo.net/ecus-tuni...example-61616/

BTW, I think you've actually found an advantage of EBC over MBC (always thought it was pretty much a wash). What your engine and MS care about is absolute pressure. But all your wastegate and MBC can deliver is gauge pressure (i.e., difference from atmospheric). So, if you used EBC, you would tune to a target absolute pressure and if you ever came down off your hill you would still be tuned but would see faster spool. I managed to make EBC work on my MS-1, but it took some doing. I think this feature is much improved in later MS variants.

VD is a nice tool. Been trying to get Brad to do a torque/MAP feature (or at least text output so we can compute it ourselves in Excel). That would be a really good way to identify MBT.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:07 PM   #38
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Thanks for the kind words, guys. I'm always playing with the car, and I like the idea of those det phones, looking into that thread now. I know MS can accept a knock sensor, but I've never read any really good things about it. I'm going to look into that as well.

Matthew, I'm pretty sure I have the same plugs, 1 step colder than stock right? IIRC mine are bkr7e as well. And judging from the graphs I'd say I'm certainly closer than I was . By the time I drop 2k feet to your elevation, and add a few pounds of boost it should be pretty close. Probably wont be adding boost soon though, due to that damn blow out.

One thing I've noticed is that the car is fast, but the lag between gears kills it sometimes. For instance on a hard 1-2 the re spool is pretty bad, going to look into flat foot shifting for now, but honestly I need a BP. BP is coming soon, I'm on the hunt. I want to find one that I can drop in this winter, but we'll see. I'm more than happy with the power my 1.6 makes now, but the power under the curve leaves some to be desired. Seems like BP with a BB turbo would be awesome.

As for the EBC thing, 100% agreed. Boost based off map would be far superior than the MBC that can only judge how many PSI above ambient you are. I'm rocking the OG mspnp (MS1) and have read nothing but HORRIBLE things about trying to get the EBC going with this ecu. I even bought the EBC solenoid when I bought my mspnp but decided against trying to hook it up after reading countless threads on how much of a PITA it is. Do you have a thread about what you did to make your EBC work on ms1 by any chance? I'd love to look into it some more.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:17 PM   #39
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What's your redline? I'm at 7K and have no real issue between shifts if I'm really pushing it (north of at least 6.5K). I may actually raise it a bit since the car is still pulling when the limiter steps in. Flat-footing it is going to get you a new transmission sooner than later, too
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Do you have a thread about what you did to make your EBC work on ms1 by any chance? I'd love to look into it some more.
Ask and ye' shall receive . . . .

Hustler even made it a sticky.

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...pnp-ebc-62711/

I also did det cans because of the negatives I heard about MS1 knock sensing. BTW, on the electronic det cans, make sure you read the entire thread. The original cable I bought from the Shack would let in alternator noise. Towards the end is a discussion of a DIY cable that is a major improvement.
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