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Old 12-26-2008, 01:15 PM   #21
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Why would those engines be more ideal for the car? Especially the masaratti? You have entered into a whole different discussion with those two. Neither have been tried and would more than likely cost prohibitive. The LS engine has been tried and has been proven to not upset the balance of the car. So, why does it deserve those other engines more.

Several questions though:
Why, if you go with the LS block, do you need the widebody kit and not with a 350hp setup like you are talking about?
How are you going to take 80 hours to install the LS but only 10 hours to install the compete turbo kit and built engine?
Why do you say you will have to hack up the car to save money? Removing the engine and selling it to someone to recoop some cost is hacking up the car?
You expect to have all of this together and finished by february? And you haven't ordered any of it? February 2010?

Seriously though. You came onto a turbo miata forum and the people are telling you that with the power that you are wanting, you should go with a V8. That should tell you something. You didn't come here saying you were putting in a V8 and we are trying to convince you to turbo. That would be different, and obviously a place strongly biased that way.

If you want advice, then take what people give you. If you want unconditional acceptance of whatever idea comes up, especially one that many feel is much more expensive and less relaible than a readily available alternative, then you sir have come to the wrong place.

Last edited by rharris19; 12-26-2008 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:19 PM   #22
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Oh and don't be jealous I'm going to be rolling a 3071R in Feb
I think a 2560R is too big. Lose the attitude.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:43 PM   #23
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fmowry, Their spread sheet is a little weak. I attached mine, it is a little outdated but as you can see I have been kicking this around a while, as Kenne Bell has long been out of the Miata biz. I know the turbo will cost me more but I can hack away at the build a few dollars at a time. The V-8 will require hacking away at the car to save a few bucks. Both will weigh about the same and make the same power. (Without spending more on performance parts for the LS engine) If I was to go through the trouble the LS engine is not the engine the car derserves. Something like the 4.3 from the Maserati or the 4.0 from the new M3 would be the ideal engine for the car, then the AWR wide body to cover the 285 series tires to go along with it. Then it becomes a show car and something not easily left in a Walmart parking lot. So, I chose to stay with the 1.8 and moderate boost. This is my work car I drive it every day and plan to keep driving it for many more years.
I'm in the middle of the v8roadsters conversion so i have an idea of what it costs. In fact I know exactly what my parts cost and they're close to FMs aside from labor which I did myself.

You obviously haven't priced ANY used BMW motor before, or mating a trans to it so the shifter actually comes up in the hole in the Miata trans tunnel. And the power potential of an LSX is much more than those motors with off the shelf parts from Jegs or Summit.


How about the size of the BMW or Maserati motors? You do know that the LSX is one of the most compact motors around in the v8 world, right? There's a reason it's the most popular swap out there. And there's also a reason you see BMW guys swapping LS motors in their cars. They could probably bolt in a new BMW powerplant but it doesn't make financial or power sense.

You should redo your homework on V8 swaps because you receive an "F".

Frank
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:12 PM   #24
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If I was to go through the trouble the LS engine is not the engine the car derserves. Something like the 4.3 from the Maserati or the 4.0 from the new M3 would be the ideal engine for the car, then the AWR wide body to cover the 285 series tires to go along with it. Then it becomes a show car and something not easily left in a Walmart parking lot. So, I chose to stay with the 1.8 and moderate boost. This is my work car I drive it every day and plan to keep driving it for many more years.
You're right, the SBC has never done anything notable like winning leMans, lol. Basically you have a stock miata, you've never done any of this **** before, but you're correcting the educated class because you read a catalog you scored in the mail. You also noted that you hold the gold-medal for researching v8 swaps, but you've never done one and you're correcting FM who probably does them monthly. Have fun living your life a 1/4 mile at a time.

Sometimes I like to show off my Enzo swap at Wal-Mart. I showd off my Veyron there for a while, but I broke the welds in the manifold boosting 20g's on each turbo. That's 80G's total, son. Talk to me when you've boosted half of that.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:36 PM   #25
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Ha i rememer watching fast and furious for the first time in the theatre and when Ven Diesel was saying he busted the welds on the intake manifold, everyone in the audience was going "Ohhhhhhhhh" right along with the crowd at the race. I just sat there after the 10 minute quater mile thinking "................what?!?......". Afterward all the people there were taking about thier riced out civics they were planning to boost to 20psi. This guy = That Audience.

Just because you know a little doesn't mean you know it all. Do I know it all? Absolutely not. Do I know enough to trust people who know more than me? Absolutely.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:55 PM   #26
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Well at least this site is active, I have to wait days to get this many replies on m-net.

Jay, Savington, just poking at you. You got under my skin so I just gave a little back.

I like how it is assumed that because I don't "have" a built car means that I don't know **** about them. I said the spread sheet is out of date. I have played with sections without updating others. Some of the info is for just doing the Voodoo without building the engine. All of the V8 info was from before the three kits are offered now.

Curly, My choice for radiator was from FM which I know is a drop in and would provide plenty of cooling for a V-8. The stock fans would probably pull enough air but I had the price there at one time and haven't deleated it.

fmowry, Yes, for fit and price the LS is a great choice. I am aware of the differences see below. Good luck on your swap.

Harris, The Maserati/BMW engines are beautiful engines to look at, the Lexus DOHC V-8 has been done so making one fit isn't impossible. I never said they were in the same price range as the LS. I just think that if I had a huge pile of cash lying aroung that one of those engines would make for a sweet show car Miata. Those engines love 8000 rpm and sound beautiful. As for the wide body with the LS. I know that eventually that LS wouldn't be stock. I would then complain about traction then it would be down to how to fit bigger tires then how to cover those tires. BTDT

Hustler, I think it is the best for me. I know FM will still be in business the week after I buy the turbo. The kit is the most complete kit I have found out there. The parts used are high quality. The parts fit. "Cheap, Reliable, Fast pick any two" is what the hot rodders I grew up with used to say.

FM just started doing the LS install, they didn't even develop the kit. It is from V8 Roadsters. So, what makes them any more wise than I.

Just a little history. I am 40 and haven't had a hot rod since I came in the army, been in 14 years. Before coming in I was all about tearing into cars swapping parts making **** fit putting engines from one car into ather cars that never had that engine. Most of the cars done ended up so radical that they wern't streetable. I spent a lot of time researching my options while I was paying this one off. I was totaly sold on the LS engine for a while. But now I am not looking forward to hours laying under my car trying to figure out how to get the A/C plummed or what that rattle is inside the bell housing, or how to get the speedo right, or 12 trips to the parts store to find a upper hose that is shaped correctly, or cops following me because the exhaust sounds like a dumptruck. (no pun Hustler) or how the adapt the LS fuel line to the Miata tank..or..or.. I just want a bolt on kit that I can tune to 15-18 psi drive to work and go on road trips. I would gladly pay an extra grand to avoid those headaches.
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:51 PM   #27
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good to know, just to let you know though, the godspeed and mishimoto radiators are drop in as well, if that sways your opinion.

and it sounds like you think the v8 is not bolt on. have you been to FM's site and seen the new V8 kit they offer? makes it very bolt-on-able.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:14 PM   #28
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this thread delivers...... in its own way. so heres a new one, why not get a gt2871?


i kid, i kid. no need to start another lil debate...... unless you just want to :-\


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did you roll/pull? does it rub? I have rolled rear and 205's and cant imagine anything bigger than 235 back there actually not rubbing.
thats one of Emilio's pics of his 15x9 6uls. need to roll and pull fenders on NAs, just roll on NBs. theres also creative negative chamber requirements with 275s on the 15x9
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:26 PM   #29
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Yes I have and when I ordered my Wilwoods and AFCO from them they sent me their catalog. On the back is a full page discription. Still it has some areas that are not complete. One major thing is the cutting and widening of the trans tunnel. To weld it back you need to remove at least the carpet. It shows the dash removed but maybe that is for the photo. That is definately not bolt in. Exhaust, A/C, fuel lines are a few that I can think of off hand that are not bolt on items also.

I do appreciate all you guys trying to sell me on the V-8. If it wasn't for a few personal details that swing me toward turbo I would be making plans now.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by flier129 View Post




thats one of Emilio's pics of his 15x9 6uls. need to roll and pull fenders on NAs, just roll on NBs. theres also creative negative chamber requirements with 275s on the 15x9
Oh gotcha...the negative camber is probably one of the bigger contributors to those fitting, because I know that even though mine are rolled, there is no way a 275 is fitting in there.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:46 PM   #31
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I heard FM has some ocean front property for sale...

Dumptruck is a book written by Clayton Bigsby.


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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
I know FM will still be in business the week after I buy the turbo. The kit is the most complete kit I have found out there. The parts used are high quality. The parts fit. "Cheap, Reliable, Fast pick any two" is what the hot rodders I grew up with used to say.
lol
I chose "reliable" and "fast." I specifically went with the company with the least # of broken manifolds. There were also other factors like " guaranteeing fit on a 99 motor in a 91 chassis" at no extra cost. One company emphatically said "yes" and stood behind that statement after I bolted it together...and yes, they're still in business this week. I don't think any "kit" out there is "complete." However, after two extra pieces were made, one is significantly more complete than the other which I forked over the greenbacks to.

I don't give a **** who you fork money over to, but you're bs is annoying and this forum was created a long time ago.

Last edited by hustler; 12-26-2008 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:47 PM   #32
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I do appreciate all you guys trying to sell me on the V-8. If it wasn't for a few personal details that swing me toward turbo I would be making plans now.
Hey man, we're just honest guys giving you our opinion. The fact that we get all riled up when you dont agree is because everyone here is an *******
But no one will try to sell you jack ****, people are just sharing with you what's proven to work and what isnt

Believe me, after this site you wont ever go back to m.net unless its to laugh at some douchebag making a completely retarded thread.

If you are dead set on getting that turbo, all power to ya: after all thats what this site is all about.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:51 PM   #33
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Flier I would rather at least discuss the merits of turbo sizing. I only chose the 3071 because it is the optional one for the FM II and that didn't reach my power goal. Yes my 350HP number is pulled out of my *** but it is based on what would be required to keep up with high dollar performance cars out now.
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:21 PM   #34
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Flier I would rather at least discuss the merits of turbo sizing. I only chose the 3071 because it is the optional one for the FM II and that didn't reach my power goal. Yes my 350HP number is pulled out of my *** but it is based on what would be required to keep up with high dollar performance cars out now.
then i go back to my original question of "have you ever driven a 250whp miata?" I haven't either...well, I've driven a 1.9l at 10psi with a garbage spark map and it was remarkably exciting. I couldn't tell if the clutch was slipping or the tires in 3rd gear up a hill...eventually the white smoke gave it away.

250whp is about 280 at the crank. Now, list cars that advertise 280hp (crank)...how much do they weigh? How are they geared? Exactly. Take a 2100lb, with 225's, LSD, $1k in suspension, great stock brakes and what do you get...$300k car territory on a road course. Its a 13'-long car, things can go to **** quick.
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:56 PM   #35
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then i go back to my original question of "have you ever driven a 250whp miata?" I haven't either...well, I've driven a 1.9l at 10psi with a garbage spark map and it was remarkably exciting. I couldn't tell if the clutch was slipping or the tires in 3rd gear up a hill...eventually the white smoke gave it away.

250whp is about 280 at the crank. Now, list cars that advertise 280hp (crank)...how much do they weigh? How are they geared? Exactly. Take a 2100lb, with 225's, LSD, $1k in suspension, great stock brakes and what do you get...$300k car territory on a road course. Its a 13'-long car, things can go to **** quick.
I have to agree...it took me some time to become realistic with miata power numbers as well. Coming from a heavy *** 3200lb subaru with 360whp (which felt more than enough for the street) I thought a good goal for my car would be 300-350whp......then I realized how badly I have forgotten about weight difference. Driving a stock one (till I install my turbo) at what do they put down, 100whp? I realise that tripling this power would be too much. for now my 200whp goal is MORE than enough to get me started and 250 will be my ultimate goal since the car is daily driven.
Its not a pissing contest: you want a car that is enjoyable to drive and not one you are constantly feathering and countersteering to keep straight
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:24 PM   #36
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All joking aside, I like your horsepower goal. Unfortunately there aren't many people who seem to follow through with a number that high. One way to ease the pain is to look into buying some of this stuff used. I have a similar setup to what you want and I have spent very little on it. I have seen several built motors sell on here for very cheap when compared to what you will pay at FM. I got a FM built motor and a 6 speed transmission for $2000 delivered. The same goes for turbo setups. My GT30R, manifold, full exhaust, oil lines, water lines and the intercooler was found on this forum for dirt cheap as a package when compared to what the original owner payed. The deals are out there if you are patient and willing to jump on them when you see them.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:15 PM   #37
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Jay, I think the reason some (not all) don't get to their goal is because they half step at first and then realize it will cost almost as much again to get there. "Buy the FMII realize it runs out of steam at 280-300. Then another grand or so for a new turbo, larger cooler, different exhaust, larger injectors" They blew their wad and settle for what they have.

I don't have much luck with used. You ended up with a built motor, I would end up with a 100K 323 engine. I would rather have the piece of mind that what I get is new and warrantied. I don't mind spending the money on a quality part, I just don't want to waste mony on a part that won't reach my goal.

I get a bonus "Army" in February. That is how I will pay for all this. I have the Wilwoods done, AFCO's are holding on a part from FM, will be here in a week or so. Then the turbo.

Jay, your car set up sounds very close to what I have planned. Would you do anything different? (other than V8) What boost are you running and what power are you making? Did you raise your RPM limit? My plan is to run it at 9psi on the stock bottom until I get back from Afganistan then build the bottom end. That is basicly 125HP jump this year and another next year. The boost may lag a bit this year but the car sees the 7200 prm limit almost daily.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:30 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
Just a little history. I am 40 and haven't had a hot rod since I came in the army, been in 14 years. Before coming in I was all about tearing into cars swapping parts making **** fit putting engines from one car into ather cars that never had that engine. Most of the cars done ended up so radical that they wern't streetable.
"ive got so much experience with this **** but all my cars never ran"

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I spent a lot of time researching my options while I was paying this one off.
You must suck at research, then. FM doesn't make "the best kits". That's a totally arbitrary comment, and to be quite frank, you're in the minority with that opinion on this forum. There is at least one other company producing kits that are better engineered than FM's kits, and I'll give you a hint - they produced FM's turbos for over 10 years.

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I would gladly pay an extra grand to avoid those headaches.
If you insist on going with FM, be ready to pay an extra 5k, and I'm not kidding. After the built motor, drivetrain upgrades, turbo kit, and tuning time, you're looking at damn near $15k. If you had actually done the research you claim you've done, you'd understand that there are cheaper motor builders (maybe if you fellate Hustler he'll tell you who assembled his forged 1.9 liter longblock for under $2500), better kits than FM, and other turbos than just the 3071R.

You seem to be willing to take a little abuse, so you'll probably make it here. Do some more research and you'll find out that I don't say that to a lot of people. Gain some humility and understand that we have more experience than you do, and what we are saying isn't just some forum bullshit.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:00 AM   #39
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in for fellatio!!! my built motor cost me a whopping $2100 for everything.

I highly suggest that you're "most reliable and well informed decision" order a bunch of stainless steel lines and make a heat shield prior to failure, because they will fail and will melt ****. My previous experiences with rubber lines and melted **** suggests this recommendation.

I worked at a VW shop a long time ago on the side to get free labor on a trans build, so here's a story about the flagship VW tuner. APR's first gen B5s4 kits had bad *** milled aluminum brackets for everything, hardpipes for everything, t-bolt clamps, and everything was made in house...because it was a $4k kit and the highest quality available. Then, they decided to raise the price $600 and give us rubber pipes, worm gear clamps, rubber water and oil return hoses, and stamped steel. All that rubber **** melted on the track and it blew hoses.

When I spent my money on the turbo, I spent about $1000 more than I had to because I didn't want to put rubber hoses and a nutdriver in my trunk. With that said, I'll continue to buy stuff from FM and mean no disrespect.

Cut out the arbitrary, uninformed opinion bullshit. The uninformed fanboy politics are over, Obama won.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:35 AM   #40
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Jay, your car set up sounds very close to what I have planned. Would you do anything different? (other than V8) What boost are you running and what power are you making? Did you raise your RPM limit? My plan is to run it at 9psi on the stock bottom until I get back from Afganistan then build the bottom end. That is basicly 125HP jump this year and another next year. The boost may lag a bit this year but the car sees the 7200 prm limit almost daily.
My setup is similar, but my goals are higher, much higher. There's a few things that I would do different and the biggest thing would be using a different ECU or just using a different platform all together (911). I don't drive my car very much so I haven't put a single mile on the current setup and probably won't until it gets nice out again. I keep ripping it apart to make upgrades and I will probably keep doing so until I get it tuned. I do intend to run it up to 25# or so. I will run/tune it up to about 8000 rpm and only if I really need to, definitely will keep it at less than 7000 rpm on the street.

For what you want, I would recommend a few changes. For what FM charges, you can get better from elsewhere. Much better and that goes for everything. I think you are making too much of the warranty, a decent shop will stand behind their work and if they don't then you should be going elsewhere. I guarantee you that it's possible to get that same power for much less money. Making the power is the simple part of the equation. It's the other things that are the hard part. My biggest complaint with any of the catalog setups is this, who wants the same setup that 8000 other miata owners have?
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