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Old 12-27-2008, 10:07 AM   #41
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Thanks guys, respect goes out to all of you. But I don't take it up the *** with out some sceaming and holloring. LOL These are the arguments that I was looking for when I started this thread. Pros/Cons in turbo sizing, injector sizing, RPM/boost goals, problem areas at the power level, kit issues.

Savington, You are talking about BEGI, I know what BEGI has available. I have been to his shop outside SA. He has the knowlage, but his stuff works out to about the same price as FM. There are a few differences in the kits but none that is a deal breaker. Tell me why you think BEGI is so much better?

Both cast manifold (FM's new one looks really nice)
3071R is optional (BEGI site 2860rs good for 290hp)
BEGI external wastegate (This is one area that I think may be a problem on the FM)
BEGI braided oil/water lines (FM optional stainless)
FM Hydra plug into the factory harness (Xede ?)
BEGI steel tubing, FM rubber (Rubber is odd thought but no more rattles) Hustler, I got you on the melting, planning the steel oil/water tubing they have now and hope it's not a problem with the intercooler ducting.

Your right 15K is what I expect to spend on this. 6K for the turbo and exhaust, 4k on the suspension brakes (done), 3k on the trans (buy the parts do it myself), 3k on the engine next year. Roughly....As for the engine, I will be building it myself. Local machine work. Order the rods, pistons, valve springs, with oils/belts/and bits. I think I can get it done for under 3k.

Jay, I wish I could afford a 911, but the deram is the turbo, maybe when I retire. I plan to spend this 15k and drive the car for as many years as I can. (Rebuilds included) I like the little car. When I was younger I always wanted "something different" now I just don't want the suprises. When I first went to FM's web site several years ago I was shocked by their prices. Over the years I watched as people tried to get around that cost only to have problems. (I have done this too in the past) To correct those problems the ended spending almost as much and in some cases more than if they would have just dropped to dime at the get go. This was the thinking that had me sold on the V8 for a while, I couldn't wrap my head around spending that kind of money on that little engine.

Also being in the Army I can't have the car down. I need to drop the kit in on a 4 day weekend and then use it daily. I want time to enjoy it before I deploy to Afganistan in 2010.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:46 AM   #42
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I applaud your desire to put your motor together at home, but do you have the precision equipment to do it right? I don't mind paying for someone to measure everything and throw out the duds.

Reasons I chose BEGi over the rest:
ability to make a 99 kit for a 1.6 car
heat shielding indcluded
ss/teflon lines for everything around hot metal
less reported manifold faliures (possibly confounding variables in my observation)
metal intercooler piping (no risk of tearing, and metal stuff and couplers are easily replaced after failure)

Add up the cost for FM's "extra" stuff which is not included in the kit but essential, the price are closer, but both kits are pretty good. Hopefully your new, big radiator fits. If my intercooler pipes were silicone, they'd alread have at least one hole in them because my huge radiator is too huge for the standard fitment.

Last edited by hustler; 12-27-2008 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:43 PM   #43
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I need to drop the kit in on a 4 day weekend and then use it daily.

Give up now, seriously.
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Old 12-27-2008, 06:43 PM   #44
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Yes, I have put together a few engines car and helicopter. I have Ford cert school in my back groung but the cost is what got me in the Army. I am now a helicoper mechanic. I am pretty sure I can get it together with having bearing or cyinder problems.

I don't think I have ever heard of FM's manifold cracking. For that matter BEGI either. I have heard of the tubular ones having problems, which is why I am leaning toward the cast ones.

True, the piping may be an issue, but from the looks of it there appears to be more latitude for custom bends to allow clearance. I dont have a problem with anti-chaff tape. We use it all the time on our 714's. (5700HP ea) No that I think of it, there are several low pressure (>500psi) hoses in our helicopters that are high temp reinforced material, a lot like to ones on FM's kit.

BEGI's kit seems more race car engineering, FM seems to put more effort into it being livable. (You shold have seen Bell's Cobra that was there when I stopped by. The thing looked like it was built only with aluminum and a TIG welder.) I don't really see a whole lot of difference other than that.
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:03 PM   #45
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I am confused as to why you think the V8 kit would be difficult because it is not bolt on, yet you seem unphased by the prospect of rebuilding your transmission with a quaife gearset. I'd rather do the V8 kit then the transmission.

Hustler isn't doing the Xede, I believe he's using a Megasquirt, have you considered this? Could save you about $1000 if you went with Begi and MS, or even FMII and MS? Looking now its actually $2300 cheaper without electronics, minus the pnp MS (I think they make a mspnp for a '99) and you'd be saving $1500.
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:03 PM   #46
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I've seen the CB-1 up close and personal, its impressive.

Please tell us "what is less livable" about the BEGi kit.
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:24 PM   #47
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I have to just join in as another... "if you are spending this much... go v8".

As fun as my car is... and can be... I'd do a v8 if I had half the budget you have.

It'll have just as much down time as a turbokit... since very much closer to bolt in compared to what it used to be. Not to mention downtime for the miata during trans builds (if not on a spare) and motor rebuild (same deal)

Just my .02.

3-400whp v8 trumps 350whp 4cyl. And I love my 4cyls.
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
I get a bonus "Army" in February. That is how I will pay for all this. I have the Wilwoods done, AFCO's are holding on a part from FM, will be here in a week or so. Then the turbo.

this is off the main topic i suppose, but what made you pick the AFCO's over some PCV Ohlins or even some DFV's. not trying to start another debate this time, seriously.........lol. just curious on why that setup is your pick.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:25 PM   #49
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I am confused as to why you think the V8 kit would be difficult because it is not bolt on, yet you seem unphased by the prospect of rebuilding your transmission with a quaife gearset. I'd rather do the V8 kit then the transmission.

Hustler isn't doing the Xede, I believe he's using a Megasquirt, have you considered this? Could save you about $1000 if you went with Begi and MS, or even FMII and MS? Looking now its actually $2300 cheaper without electronics, minus the pnp MS (I think they make a mspnp for a '99) and you'd be saving $1500.
nope....
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Old 12-28-2008, 03:33 PM   #50
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Savington, Is there something you know that I dont know? The transmission with be later along with the engine build. Installing the turbo kit I would guess 2 days easy; 4 days for basic tuning and checking for loose hardware.

Curly, It is not about the dificulty of it, it is about the unknows. The V8 has many grey areas. Welding the floor, exhaust, which year/model engine, accessory drives, plumbing, wiring, ect.
Rebuilding my engine and transmission, I may increase a clearance here or there based on the manufacturer recomendation but basicly I follow the service manual. When I'm done all the parts I know will fit in the factory location.

Hustler, I say that on appearances only. There possibly isn't much real difference. It just has a more industrial/race cars appearance. Not to mean it has any less quality. Maybe it comes down to trust and comfort with me.

flier, I have been watching their development car for some time now. The videos are impressive. They have made several changes specificly for the Miata chassis. Ohlin may have spent the same amount of time but I haven't seen it. Seeing is believing.

Splitime, I know the down time for the turbo will be a weekend. The V8 several weeks.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:21 PM   #51
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Just build your own block... forget about FM.
Forged rods are available from 350dollar , pistons 400.(sets on ebay right now)
Arp head & main bearring studs.
Leave the head alone..
Get a Hydra or a megasquirt ecu. AND SPEND MONEY ON TUNING!
The best turbo option is up to you... FM /BEGi are good options..
Also AVO (australia) is very good (best flow manifold of the above...)

A custom dp/exhaust (3 inch)
And ACT xt clutch + flywheel.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:50 PM   #52
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If he wants to do it in a 4 day weekend, which is technically do-able (did you see the article in GRM where FM installed their FMII kit in one of GRM's cars in two days?) he can't really go the DIY route.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #53
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oops, double post FTL
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #54
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FM installed their FMII kit. Operative word being "FM". I'd hope they could do it a little quicker than 2 days. I have two friends who have been around my car a lot (one of them actually mocked up my IC and brackets with instructions via phone from me while I was at school), and we could probably install a BEGi+DIY IC setup, MS, injectors, and have it tuned in a weekend. Someone with no experience under the hood of these cars? You're going to break or forget something and it's not going to go well.
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Old 12-28-2008, 06:11 PM   #55
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Quote:
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Hustler, I say that on appearances only. There possibly isn't much real difference. It just has a more industrial/race cars appearance. Not to mean it has any less quality. Maybe it comes down to trust and comfort with me.
so you're basing your "trust and comfort" on the one that "looks like its more livable"? So why did you spend $2k on suspension for a street car? lol
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Old 12-28-2008, 06:40 PM   #56
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Savington, I never said I didn't know what I'm doing under the hood. Hell, I had my clutch out and back in in under 3 hours.

Hustler, you got me there. I can't really say. From watching and reading about all the good raves about FM I have a warm fuzzy about them. But your right, nothing solid on that one. Then again I asked for anyone here to give me something to change my mind to BEGI and other than braided lines and choice of engine management there wasn't a whole lot of difference.
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:06 PM   #57
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Savington, I never said I didn't know what I'm doing under the hood. Hell, I had my clutch out and back in in under 3 hours.
You should give Ron Dennis of McLaren a call.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:40 AM   #58
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I agree with the V8 being a much better option for your goals. One route means a full engine rebuild, trans rebuild with a $3000 gearset, a turbo kit, and the rest of the bolt on goodies... alot of work and money. the other route is a little cash for a V8 kit from several manufacturers, and find a used LS1 for probably under $4k, and a little fabrication. You build helicopters, surely a little cutting and welding doesnt scare you. The LS1 will be more daily freindly, and probably get better MPG, and will probably cost the same or less than a full build with a turbo... yeah, your logic is perfect... Plus, a kit like the Boss Frog V8 kit doesnt require cutting the trans tunnel, just a little cutting in the engine bay. No dash removal, ect. So you could call it bolt in. Your talking probably $3200-$3800 for the full kit, then another few grand for the LS1, trans and rear end, then custom axles. So I would imagine under $10k easily. Lets see you build a turbo Miata making 350whp+ for that much, and have it get the same fuel economy, and do it with reliability. Not going to happen.

I also agree with the 250whp Miata point. I also havent been in a turbo Miata, but I can fully see how a 250whp Miata built well would be tons of fun.250whp isnt like every other 250whp, alot depends on when you get boost, and where numbers start to drop off. I think i would much rather have a well tuned 2560 making 250whp than I would a 3071 making 350whp, which might not be sqeezing out every little bit of power it can, and is probably spooling much later due to little design flaws or tune. Im tired, cant put it into words well.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:50 AM   #59
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I also agree with the 250whp Miata point. I also havent been in a turbo Miata, but I can fully see how a 250whp Miata built well would be tons of fun.250whp isnt like every other 250whp, alot depends on when you get boost, and where numbers start to drop off. I think i would much rather have a well tuned 2560 making 250whp than I would a 3071 making 350whp, which might not be sqeezing out every little bit of power it can, and is probably spooling much later due to little design flaws or tune. Im tired, cant put it into words well.
Its two differnt schools of thought. Do you want to play with the $300k cars at the road course, or leave your teef at home and live a 1/4-mile at a time. Either way, you're still a queer in a miata.

My favorite track day involved steam rolling a blown shelby at Hallett. "But mah 500hp shelby makes 500hp!!!" Sure it never hooks up and never will, but it makes lots of power!!!oneone What else could you ask for.

Seriously dude. Go for a ride-along in a turbo miata at a racetrack, you'll change your priorities quickly. The more I drove my 94whp car, and the faster I went arround the track, the less power I wanted.
Initially I desired 300whp since I came from 488whp turbo FWD streetrace ------ry
then I decided to buy for a goal of 275whp
then I started doing trackdays and realized that 275whp was absurd
then I shifted to 250wph (the floor of efficiency with the turbo I bought)
today, I almost wish I had kept the 1.6 and shot for 225whp because I finally drove a 154whp car on the track
if the car stays together at 250whp, I'll be fine after learning throttle modulation.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:09 PM   #60
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Thats exactly why my goal went from 300, to 275, to 250, to 220, now my starting goal is only about 180. I dont want to shoot too high and realise Im making too much power to be usable and needed on the street. If I want more, the boost can always be cranked up a bit. 200whp doesnt seem like much, but apparently alot of people forget that its a 100% increase in power to a car that is already quick around the track in stock form. double the hp in alot of other cars would be serious fun, just as Im sure it is in the Miata.

Also, just because you have 350whp doesnt mean you can play with $300k cars. You still have to know how to drive to make all of that power usable. If not your just blowing smoke up your ***.
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