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Old 12-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #61
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This place sounds more like m.net every day......
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #62
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Jay, I think the reason some (not all) don't get to their goal is because they half step at first and then realize it will cost almost as much again to get there. "Buy the FMII realize it runs out of steam at 280-300. Then another grand or so for a new turbo, larger cooler, different exhaust, larger injectors" They blew their wad and settle for what they have.
1> Disagree, people stop before their goals because they shoot for a nice sounding number, but do not realize how fast a 225-250+ rwhp miata is (much like you do not it appears). It ultimately comes down to driving limits.

2> Get a LSX v8 (shocker). If my 1.6 blows, I will be going LS1. Why? It's the same cost, its the same power numbers, the torque is better...and damnit the motor is reliable. Less **** can break.

3> Consider a smaller turbo/smaller numbers. There's several members who are able to throw down 300 rwhp, however, if your REALLY going to DD the car, you'll enjoy it more at 250 rwhp w/ better spool on a 2860/2871..etc.

4> Seriously, from the 3 pages which I just read, it sounds like if FM bottled ball sweat you'd pay 1k for it. Price shop on parts, find a good local machine shop for an engine build, or look at piecing together parts from multiple vendors. Pretty much stop taking power advice from 60 year old men on m.net or you'll end up wearing skirts from Ann Taylor Loft while you drive your overpriced turbo car.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:18 PM   #63
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Thats exactly why my goal went from 300, to 275, to 250, to 220, now my starting goal is only about 180. I dont want to shoot too high and realise Im making too much power to be usable and needed on the street. If I want more, the boost can always be cranked up a bit. 200whp doesnt seem like much, but apparently alot of people forget that its a 100% increase in power to a car that is already quick around the track in stock form. double the hp in alot of other cars would be serious fun, just as Im sure it is in the Miata.

Also, just because you have 350whp doesnt mean you can play with $300k cars. You still have to know how to drive to make all of that power usable. If not your just blowing smoke up your ***.
ok dude, 180whp is kinda *****. Seriously, be a man.


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Pretty much stop taking power advice from 60 year old men on m.net or you'll end up wearing skirts from Ann Taylor Loft while you drive your overpriced turbo car.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:49 PM   #64
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Ok, I confess. I have a problem. My problem is that I take everything to the limit. If I were to put a V8 in the Miata it wouldn't be stock for long it would be bigger cam, lighter flywheel, on and on and on. I would then need much wider tires which would mean wider fenders. All of this meaning much more $$$ than what the built engine with the 3071. Sure the FMII comes with the 2560 but once again I have a problem and I know that no sooner than I build my engine I will want more power. The 2560 runs out at about 280. I don't want to spend another 1200 to get a new turbo.

I will call BEGI once the holidays are over and discuss some turbo sizing. (The original intent of this thread) FM only offers the 2560 and 3071. BEGI at least has several sizing options.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:54 PM   #65
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Ok, I confess. I have a problem. My problem is that I take everything to the limit. If I were to put a V8 in the Miata it wouldn't be stock for long it would be bigger cam, lighter flywheel, on and on and on. I would then need much wider tires which would mean wider fenders. All of this meaning much more $$$ than what the built engine with the 3071. Sure the FMII comes with the 2560 but once again I have a problem and I know that no sooner than I build my engine I will want more power. The 2560 runs out at about 280. I don't want to spend another 1200 to get a new turbo.

I will call BEGI once the holidays are over and discuss some turbo sizing. (The original intent of this thread) FM only offers the 2560 and 3071. BEGI at least has several sizing options.
I disagree with pretty much everything you've said.

1> Fine, put a cam in the LS1... they respond awesome. Sure, go ahead and do all that stuff. It will NOT cost more then the built FM setup you were talking and will still be more reliable as a daily driver (as you plan on using this car).

2> Either way at 300+ hp you will need flares and huge wheels/tires- so moot point.

3> We all know the 2560 is not an option, but no one is suggesting it. We are saying 2860 or 2871.
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:11 PM   #66
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Ok, I confess. I have a problem. My problem is that I take everything to the limit. If I were to put a V8 in the Miata it wouldn't be stock for long it would be bigger cam, lighter flywheel, on and on and on. I would then need much wider tires which would mean wider fenders. All of this meaning much more $$$ than what the built engine with the 3071. Sure the FMII comes with the 2560 but once again I have a problem and I know that no sooner than I build my engine I will want more power. The 2560 runs out at about 280. I don't want to spend another 1200 to get a new turbo.

I will call BEGI once the holidays are over and discuss some turbo sizing. (The original intent of this thread) FM only offers the 2560 and 3071. BEGI at least has several sizing options.
Do you want to burn-out in 4th gear, or have something that may not spin the tires in 4th but can chase down the "pedigree" checkbook felchers?

I'm getting all poetic here, but seriously...go to a track, put on depends, ride shotgun, win at life.
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:32 PM   #67
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while the thought of flooring it in 4th and have the rear step out from overwhelming the tires with sheer power sounds great, it is just begging to crash.
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:01 PM   #68
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I understand what I am asking from this 1.8 at 350. If you do the math that is an 1166hp 6.0. No small feat, but today that is becoming more common. I remember 15-20 years ago 1 hp per cubic inch was a good strong number for an engine. Now it is 100hp per liter. I know that this engine will need rebuilding more often.

But because this will be fairly expensive I want to get the most out of the engine that I can. Meaning if I spend 5K on a turbo kit but it is limited due to rod weakness I'm going to change the rods and build it to take advantage of it when I can. I may not run it at 350 everyday. Hell, I know I won't get over 9psi until I do the engine next year. But, I sure will be pissed to spend 5K on a turbo kit only to find out that I f'ed up my plans and I have to go back and redo it to make any more power.

I know it may not make since to you why I don't think the V8 is my answer. I believe that it will not be as clean of an install or be as comfortable daily. I believe that although it may cost about the same now I will spend more on it in the long run than I will initaly.

I do plan on building a strong relaible car that can be comfortable to drive daily. I plan to have this car for many years. Now that I am getting older I want a car that I can run at the track (no classes just fun) or go to driving schools.

2860? What 290 HP I don't really know. 2871? 350HP? I know the 3071R is listed on both sites. I know some of you are running it. I know that it has enough head room to support what my goals are. Will there be some lag, yes I expect there will, I also am guesing that it will begin to boil at about 4K rpm. That is fine, it means torque is down on the bottom end, that to me means traction control is a bit easier.

Which one can get me closest to my goal on pump fuel? Water/meth injection? I dont really know if the 3071 will get me there on pump gas at 15-18 psi. Maybe a little more boost will be required. I am curious as to what I could run daily, meaning pump fuel. (93 east coast fuel)

Wow a couple of beers and I write a book.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:43 PM   #69
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I've got a GT2860RS and my engine build started last Saturday and I am EXCITED! I went with ETD H-beam rods, Wiseco 9:1 pistons, valve springs and retainers, ATi dampener, FM dual feed fuel rail, BEGi's new intake manifold and a few other little things. I'm only turning up the Boost 3psi more to get me over 300rwhp. It should be around 312rwhp. Since you live in Houston you really should come out for my next Turbo Miata Day, there were lots of different rwhp cars to drive and ride in, everything from a JR MP45 160rwhp to my BEGi Series 4 272rwhp and everything in-between.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:04 AM   #70
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Sell your Miata and buy a Corvette. Seriously, no bullshit, no making fun of you. If I wanted to see 350whp in my car in a daily fashion, I would just sell the car. I really don't think I would have a lot of fun in a 3071R Miata. I've had a ride in a 3076R STI, and that thing had horrible spool and response. It was useless as anything other than a drag car. It was just awful until like 4200rpm, and then it was like a lightswitch. It felt like nitrous.

Start with a 2560R and learn to drive it. If you really want to track the car, you'll spend at LEAST a year (and that's my year, so at least 10 events) figuring out how to not look like a total **** with 250whp. It will give you time to sort out the gauge setup, a clutch, and maybe break a tranny. You'll learn a lot and it will give you some experience with a buttload of power in a Miata.

At the same time, send a block to Hustler's motor builder with a 99 head and tell him to stuff some forged guts into it. When you feel like you have a good grasp on the 2560R, swap over to a 2871R and throw your forged motor in. With a 2871R, a 99 head, 9:1 pistons, and meth/water, you should have absolutely no problem hitting 350whp if that's what you end up wanting.

230-250whp is enough power to give you serious traction issues exiting 3rd gear corners on street tires. I have no issue acting like a total hooligan on either 225mm R-comps or 245mm street tires - in third gear. I still think you seriously underestimate the amount of work that goes into hooking a 350whp Miata to the ground.
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Old 01-01-2009, 02:46 AM   #71
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ok dude, 180whp is kinda *****. Seriously, be a man.
I said my starting goal was 180. Im sure once I get the 6 speed and 3.6 gear, I will be wanting more like 225-250whp. Pretty sure in the near future I will be buying another engine to build for higher power and will probably get another chassis to go in, I like this car daily drivable too much to go too crazy with. Even with a built engine though, I wouldnt want to push much over 300. Anything more than that imo is not needed. Straight away may pull harder, but everywhere else on the track you wont be pulling, or may even be pulled on by lower hp cars with smaller turbos.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:43 AM   #72
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I said my starting goal was 180. Im sure once I get the 6 speed and 3.6 gear, I will be wanting more like 225-250whp. Pretty sure in the near future I will be buying another engine to build for higher power and will probably get another chassis to go in, I like this car daily drivable too much to go too crazy with. Even with a built engine though, I wouldnt want to push much over 300. Anything more than that imo is not needed. Straight away may pull harder, but everywhere else on the track you wont be pulling, or may even be pulled on by lower hp cars with smaller turbos.
I would tune it for 12psi and never look back. The tranny will last pretty good. Unless you are trying to tear it up.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:44 PM   #73
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Even with a built motor a 3071 is gonna have tons of LAAAAAAAG unless you spring for the stroker. Have you ever looked at BEGi? I know how people are militant over one or the other (FM/BEGi) but I get a lot of my stuff from both vendors and lots of others (ETD rods, Miataroadster Carbon driveshaft, etc.). I'm not mechanically inclined so no DIY for me. I've done my own suspension and a few other minor things but I don't dare get into the motor and trans myself. I like having the Disco Potato, at the track it's a Monster but I can still get out and Auto-X it. We don't get tons of track time in Houston but there are at least two Auto-X's a month. Admittedly I got a little slower with the Turbo around the cones at first but I'm getting back in fighting shape, just a learning curve. I really wish you would have come out to Turbo Miata Day and drive Miatas at a lot of different rwhp levels. You learn a lot by doing so. Good luck with whatever you end up doing and I'm sure you'll post pics.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:48 PM   #74
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stop taking power advice from 60 year old men on m.net or you'll end up wearing skirts from Ann Taylor Loft while you drive your overpriced turbo car.
Newbsauce

Was this a not-so veiled shot at Corky Bell? The guy that's forgotten more about turbocharging cars than most of the people on here combined will ever know. Funny.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:31 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbsauce
stop taking power advice from 60 year old men on m.net or you'll end up wearing skirts from Ann Taylor Loft while you drive your overpriced turbo car.

Was this a not-so veiled shot at Corky Bell?
no, it wasn't.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:41 PM   #76
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I thought it may be seeing as how Corky is the only 66yr old guy that regularly posts on m.net. Thanks for clearing it up newbsauce, I mean Savington. Who knew you two were sharing a brain?
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:57 PM   #77
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Well I e-mailed Keith and Corky. I got a response from Bill. (guess Keith forwarded the mail) I also did some searching. I found and comfirmed from Bill that the 3071 will spool better than the 2560 "if" I used the stroker. (duh) So, if I find myself dreading the spool time of the larger turbo I have an option. Not a cheap one but..

I am still waiting for a reply from Corky. I'm sure he is enjoying the new years break. I want to get some info about the 2871 and 76.

Thanks Savington for the suggestion about the turbo sizing. I am not totaly broke but I don't have (want) money to spend on two turbos. My thought was that I would have some time with the boost limited to 9 psi due to waiting on the engine build.
i have read that the 3071 has better thermal capabilities than the 2871 and that allows more timing to be run. What do you think about that? Thanks for the warning about the traction, I also have seen a post from Corky stating the same thing. It did not go un-noted? but my heart is set on that power goal and with all the advice earlier about the LS1 I would be in the same position. The point of building this much power is to have the option to boil the tire if the urge strikes. As long as it is controlable.

Mat, I would have loved to been there. (I am stationed in Savannah now, Houston is my Home) It would have been nice to get a refresher of how a big boosted Miata feels. A few years ago I met with a bunch of guys from M-net and got a few rides. One guy was running a 2560 FMII at 14psi. It was fast but I have been faster in my 67 Mustang.

Give me some info on the BEGI intake you are running. I have seen the same one offered on his site for a while. You said new. Is it the same one? Also, since you are running the 2860rs what do you think about Savingtons suggestion about the 2871. I see you are already at 16 psi (13+3) and just over 300. How high do you think you will go before you run out of octane?

Both of your warnings about the lag have made an impression. I surely dont want that nitrous feeling. I will be thinking long and hard about the stroker or smaller turbo.
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:27 PM   #78
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if the turbo makes target boost at 4k rpm, who cares? You should have told us that you just wanted to do burnouts. While you're doing burnouts, most of use will chase down $300k toys at the track. Different strokes i suppose. However, I should note that i chose roadracing because its essentially motorsports for people with teeth.
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:49 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
Well I e-mailed Keith and Corky. I got a response from Bill. (guess Keith forwarded the mail) I also did some searching. I found and comfirmed from Bill that the 3071 will spool better than the 2560 "if" I used the stroker. (duh) So, if I find myself dreading the spool time of the larger turbo I have an option. Not a cheap one but..
Until I see a dyno chart of a 2.0 spooling a 3071R faster than a 1.8 spooling a 2560R, I will call BS on that. I have a really hard time believing that, and I'm damn sure the 3071R will not be as responsive as a 2560R car.

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I am still waiting for a reply from Corky. I'm sure he is enjoying the new years break. I want to get some info about the 2871 and 76.
Do a little research into Garrett nomenclature. It will help aid your decision a lot. Basically:

2554 = T25 turbine, 54mm compressor exducer
2560 = T25 turbine, 60mm compressor exducer
2871 = T28 turbine, 71mm compressor exducer





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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
Thanks Savington for the suggestion about the turbo sizing. I am not totaly broke but I don't have (want) money to spend on two turbos. My thought was that I would have some time with the boost limited to 9 psi due to waiting on the engine build.
i have read that the 3071 has better thermal capabilities than the 2871 and that allows more timing to be run. What do you think about that?
There's certainly truth in that. You aren't going to be spinning a 3071 as hard as a 2871 to make the same power, but are you willing to give up ANOTHER few hundred RPM of spool? Have you seen the Spool Data thread that's a sticky in one of the subforums? There are a ton of setups all graphed together in there.

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Originally Posted by DOHCPanther View Post
I will be thinking long and hard about the stroker or smaller turbo.
If you do anything larger than a 2560R, look long and hard at Corky's S4 setup. It has been proven to make a big difference in spool.

I really want to drive a 2860RS/2871R/3071R car.
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:43 AM   #80
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Yes, I do need to read up on turbo sizing. You have a good link? I am completely stupid on it. I am just now figuring out the flange type, bearing housings, compressor, and turbine sections. Then to make matters worse the different manufacturers don't use the same standard in naming them.

I don't want to just do burn outs. I do plan on having this thing fairly livable. (The reason I started the tread to discuss issues like these) Actually I want to do my best to build an all arounder. Once mostly done I want to get it out to attend events like the Texas mile, Beg bend open road, open track events, time trials, tail of the dragon. I don't feel the need to class and compete just get out and have fun with the car.

I'll admit I did just pick a HP number, it is based on what I want the car to be able to do in the quarter mile. My though is that low 11's is about as fast as needed on the street. Roughly 2400 lb car takes 350ish HP. Safey standars go up when running 10 and faster and I think there is reason for it so I felt like the 350 was a good number to shoot for. So, when planning my purchases I opted not to waste money on half steps. Maybe the 3071 is overkill (donno) but I know that the 2560 won't get me there and FM offered the 3071 as the next step and I have a lot of trust in them. I have been searching the archives and it appears there are some thermal advantages to the larger turbo. My thought is that it may have the capability to make over 400 but I intend to run somewhere in the 15-18 PSI range, street fuel if possible. (If the info from threads are true?)

I see on BEGI's website that the litrature posted on the various systems state a power level. Then below there are optional turbos available. What I dont know is if the power level is for the smallest or largest one listed.

Calling these guys is a great idea but I need to kind of know what I am going to ask about before I call. No need to waste their time with a BS conversation about something that is way off track. Also, I would like to use the time to get more spicific details about the one that would closly match my needs.

I read the whole spool thread. I also contacted the guy that had his car done at FM. He has the 3071 and stroker, is claiming that is spools faster than his brothers 1.8 with 2560. I told him about the thread and he gave me a link. I posted that link on the spool thread. (oh, and thanks for going easy on me I saw the coolant reroute thread too, LOL) He said he was on vacation and that he was planning to data log it when he returned. I im curious to see its actual numbers.

Why do you suggest the S4 over the S5? It looks like the 2860 is offered in either one. I see the price is lower and the stainless header sure would look sweet but I am guessing a heat shield would be added to it at some time, that or header wrap. If the header is what helps with the spool then what gives with the S5 that one is cast iron. Guessing durability, if so it makes me question the S4 for a daily driver.

I also was kicking around the stroker issue. If I was to decide to do it, it may be smarter to do that first and then add the turbo later. I could almost do it and the transmission for what the turbo and exhaust run.(not including head) My down time would be longer but we have an old Caravan I could lug around in for a while. I wouldn't have to worry about breaking parts like that though. One thing about it is that I cant take advantage of the power club 10% discount from FM.

Side Note. Me and the Mrs. was discussing the thread and why I didn't feel as comfortable with BEGI. His age is a worry. He has slowed down over the years (some products he promised were available much later or not) and I am not sure his company is secure if something were to happen to him. I did see on his news section about the guy he has handed the torch over to but I am not sure if that make me any more comfortable.
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