BEGi S3 vs FM2 - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Would you get the BEGi S3 or FM2 system
BEGi S3 29 31.87%
FM2 62 68.13%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-03-2012, 10:08 PM   #101
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Gas has 35MJ/L potential energy when burned.

E85 has 25.5MJ/L


You run E85 over 51% richer that you run Gasoline.

25.5 x 1.51 = 38.64

38.64/35= 1.104

Or 110.4% of the total energy output of gas, using all numbers on the E85 side rounded down.

The fuel simply produces more, hotter exhaust gas, which is able to push the piston down harder.

Tell me do you guys believe that doing a nitromethane conversion wont improve power 1hp? Im sure you dont believe that because thats silly.

E85 produces the same torque (and hence power) increase on n/a engines in the same way methanol does.

Theres no extra airflow in these n/a engines to make more power so how dus it wurk? More MJ of energy output per combustion cycle.

The car doesnt need extra airflow into the engine because E85 has an oxygen molecule in its chemical makeup just ready to help burn the fuel (which is why stoich ratio is in the 9's not 14.7). So the fuel itself adds some oxygen, to stay at stoich the tuner adds more fuel than on gas, and total sum energy output is increased.

I cannot believe I have to type this.

Anyways the car has to be able to get rid of those extra exhaust gases without hitting the rear housing, downpipe, and exhausts flow limit.

So having said all that you guys must believe that a 2560 cannot flow 350whp worth of exhaust gas no matter what.

Solving that problem if it is one is porting the exhaust housing and running an external wastegate.

Either way I get the car Monday and the work will begin and Ill post results.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 11-04-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:09 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
so you increase timing.... so now we have more exhaust which still has nowhere to go. did my real world traffic analogy not make sense? so were on the freeway with 4 roads going into 1. you know what how about we widen the 4 lanes into 6 now. that'll fix our traffic jam problem.
Are you confident this setup is flowing 100% of the exhaust possible?

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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
The thread just keeps getting dumber.
It was a question, hence the question mark. This is a bold remark coming from the guy who doesn't know how much air to put in his tires.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:16 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post

I cannot believe I have to type this.


Dann
You ever drive on the wrong side of the street and wonder: "why are all these idiots honking at me?"

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It was a question, hence the question mark. This is a bold remark coming from the guy who doesn't know how much air to put in his tires.
lolol
I'd type up a response but quite frankly, not even worth the effort.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:25 AM   #104
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Just finished the install of the FM 2 kit with full 3 inch exhaust on my 2004 MSM. Titanium wrap the whole pipe. Hydra Nemesis 2.7 . I am not fully tuned yet ( Could use help from anyone that has experience)...All I can say it is so quiet until you stomp on it. QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY. Everything in the kit complements each other and the fit is perfect.
Install for a first time install took a while, read the manual, then read it again and map out what you are going to do.

Support at Flyin Miata is great....as with any company that is so popular, lead time for some questions can take a while but they do know there stuff.

Questions : What type of boost should be my max? 130K miles on engine with stock internals but engine looks clean.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:34 AM   #105
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but its well outside it's efficency range, e85 be damned.

it's all about the floooooooooooow.

look at the difference between 14psi and 17psi. 10hp, but gobs of midrange torque...the thing is tapppppped out.

unless you fit it in a .86 a/r housing, i dont see it happening; just a lot of hot air.
Brain already said it. you can think we're stupid all you want but it's not the case. It's all about the volume and regardless of the kick of the detonation the same amount of volume is still going to come out of the cylinders. with e85 it will just get to max volume faster.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:37 AM   #106
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Questions : What type of boost should be my max? 130K miles on engine with stock internals but engine looks clean.
tony that depends on the turbo you have.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by RussellT94 View Post
Are you confident this setup is flowing 100% of the exhaust possible?
Yes Russell it's well known that that specific housing runs out of flow around ~270-305 hp that tends to be 17-19 psi.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:55 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
Yes Russell it's well known that that specific housing runs out of flow around ~270-305 hp that tends to be 17-19 psi.
How are you providing a 35hp range when stating that this specific setup is at 100% output? Help me understand how a 35hp and 2 psi range is proof of 100% efficiency.

My apologies if any of this sounds argumentative, I'm trying to learn.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:04 AM   #109
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This thread has too many wikiwoos and not enough engineers.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:17 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by RussellT94 View Post
How are you providing a 35hp range when stating that this specific setup is at 100% output? Help me understand how a 35hp and 2 psi range is proof of 100% efficiency.

My apologies if any of this sounds argumentative, I'm trying to learn.
I could see how my answer could seem wishy washy but that is generally where people settle when tuning their cars. It's hard to be specific as well since each dyno is relative to it's location and calibration. Power levels are going to be different for someone in Colorado opposed to michigan. arizona compared to new york. different elevations and climates have different air density.

I also almost forgot the other variables like the type of head your using, manifolds, go fast parts, etc...

Obviously some go fast parts are more restrictive than others. A log exhaust manifold does not flow as efficiently as a tubular (one of the things mentioned in the earlier pages).
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:30 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
I could see how my answer could seem wishy washy but that generally where people settle when tuning their cars. It's hard to be specific as well since each dyno is relative to it's location and calibration. Power levels are going to be different for someone in Colorado opposed to michigan. arizona compared to new york. different elevations and climates have different air density.
So you're saying the 35hp variance you provided is due to dyno operations and climates? 35hp is > 10% of the max HP number you quoted, seemed like a big number to attribute to location.

Do you think a vehicle running in the previously mentioned circumstances, but on C16 race fuel would make more power?
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:03 AM   #112
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ITT: people who think a car running a 2560 will make 300 on an optimised setup running on diesel.

Dann
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:19 AM   #113
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Yeah when it comes to dyno operation there are tons of factors. From the fans they use to cool your car while conducting to the correction variables the operator puts in. People have different car configurations, different environments, different dynos, different operators. Yes that stuff makes a huge difference. I used to race super street bikes and my r-6 dynoed at 139hp in michigan and 103hp in flagstaff arizona. Also why do you think all the land speed records are set at the salts? cause it's the most awesome place to visit?

The gt2560 will not.

look this is a typical plot. see how it's flat from 3.5 to 7k rpm? any kind of gas you put in there isn't going to make that curve any less flat. It's flat because it's tapped. in that plot specifically it's ~16 psi. even the guys that have gotten 300hp 2560 plots still have that big flat spot on there. All the plots i've seen over 300 as well have been on dynojets and not mustang dynos. I'm sorry you can keep asking questions but i'm done answering and disagreeing with anyone. I can only explain the same thing so many times and am tired of beating this dead horse.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:31 AM   #114
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No one has given an explanation as to why you cannot make more power with better fuel.

No one, all Ive gotten is that the turbo is 'tapped out'.

Airflow isnt the be all and end all. It is if your thinking is geared to 20 years of engine experience using 1 fuel only though,

Dann
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:51 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post


look this is a typical plot. see how it's flat from 3.5 to 7k rpm? any kind of gas you put in there isn't going to make that curve any less flat. It's flat because it's tapped
Your dyno looks like poor boost control, not the issue we are "debating."
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:02 AM   #116
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Brain already said it. you can think we're stupid all you want but it's not the case. It's all about the volume and regardless of the kick of the detonation the same amount of volume is still going to come out of the cylinders. with e85 it will just get to max volume faster.
I'm going to guess you're not an engineer of any sort (especially chemical), because what you're typing makes no sense. I can't say what nitro will accomplish, but he is actually on the right track. Given a constant mass of air and as much E85 or gasoline I want, E85 combustion will always give a higher enthalpy. Who knows if nitro will hit 350, but it will be more than the equivalent gasoline setup.

High school chemistry.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:30 AM   #117
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http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/30849.pdf

A few of the energy superpowers, national labs and auto manufacturers included, published that ethanol, methanol and E85 are all worth 3-5% power increase.

I'm certain someone on here will probably write them a letter requesting all their test data as well.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:58 AM   #118
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Right, and the rest of you geniuses have tuned e85 multiple times on maxed out setups and know what you're talking about
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:05 AM   #119
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Yet another answer nothing know nothing post, thanks 18psi.

Dann
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:07 AM   #120
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No problem. You're not looking for an answer. If someone told you that they tried what you're suggesting, and it didn't work out the way you think it should based on your calculations, you'd keep bullshitting in this thread with 0 actual experience with it. So I'm just bullshitting right back passing the time till you prove us all wrong.
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