BEGi S3 vs FM2 - Page 5 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Would you get the BEGi S3 or FM2 system
BEGi S3 29 31.87%
FM2 62 68.13%
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:29 PM   #81
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the 2560 is in my opinion the best turbo for .63 housing. the 2860 is not a bad turbo but it's also generally a .63 housing and if the 2560 is going to limit the flow then the 2860 isn't really going to benefit much anyway except slow spool a bit....... unless you get a 2860 .82 housing but at that point you may as well get a 2871. 2560 is best for non built motor imo. I know many people have used 2860's but I would never snag one over the other 2 options i listed unless it was a better financial choice.

e85 won't EVER get a 2560 to 350. ever. i don't care if it has more potential.

to answer the op: best advice was already given. you seemed to have conceded to it. read a lot and do everything right the first time. don't skimp and piece everything together correctly. the best thing to start with is an ecu not a turbo kit. understanding tuning and the application of the turbo is really the most important thing to having a fun reliable car.

Last edited by krissetsfire; 11-04-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:44 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
26whp is closer to 25whp than 25% hp.

Plus the idea that you lose more power to drivetrain losses as the power output increases doesnt quite make any sense.

you really think that your differential cares if you're outputting 200 vs 400 HP through it?

You think it cares so much that's there's a 100hp loss when there's more power trying to spin it? But only a 50hp loss when there's not quite so much power turning it?

Honestly, that doesnt make sense. Loss is loss, it's not a percentage of the power output.

You're suggesting that Soviet's motor makes 535BHP and it only can't produce that much to the wheels because his drivetrain is overwhelmed. His car must be hella hot when he drives it; the transmission and differential is probably glowing red from outputting 135HP as heat energy.

While i still somewhat want to agree with you more than the alternative...

I got kindof chewed for suggesting that view over the years. Most recently here:

One of THOSE discussions.... Driveline loss: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

I still don't 100% buy it, but the counterpoint almost makes sense to me.


Oh, and Keith @ FM says 26hp.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:08 PM   #83
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The argument he made was valid but it still doesn't work out to a fixed percentage loss. It would look more like 26whp+26whp*(% of increased power/rpm) I would also venture to guess that percentage would not be all that high.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:23 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
26whp is closer to 25whp than 25% hp.

Plus the idea that you lose more power to drivetrain losses as the power output increases doesnt quite make any sense.

you really think that your differential cares if you're outputting 200 vs 400 HP through it?

You think it cares so much that's there's a 100hp loss when there's more power trying to spin it? But only a 50hp loss when there's not quite so much power turning it?

Honestly, that doesnt make sense. Loss is loss, it's not a percentage of the power output.

You're suggesting that Soviet's motor makes 535BHP and it only can't produce that much to the wheels because his drivetrain is overwhelmed. His car must be hella hot when he drives it; the transmission and differential is probably glowing red from outputting 135HP as heat energy.
lol

I see what you're saying.

The whole argument is retarded anyway.

WHP....Until someone yanks an engine and measures its ouput independent of car...is all that there is.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:44 PM   #85
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You guys who think E85 doesn't increase HP are all cute.

Let's break this down real easy.

A turbo can flow X amount of air on an optimized set up.
E85 produces at least 10% more torque across the entire rev range th9an gasoline.
A few cars with nice manifolds and 3" exhaust have made over 300whp on gas.

300 x 1.1=330

So at least 330 is achievable.
E85 doesn't need more airflow to make more power, that's why it works on n/a engines too. And dot start with the 'its only good for turbo' arguments otherwise alcohol fuels wouldn't be banned in racing classes that are n/a only.

Either way you should be encouraging me to try it. You only have knowledge to gain either way.

And no I won't go to carbies k thx bi.

Dann
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:44 PM   #86
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Quote:
WHP....Until someone yanks an engine and measures its ouput independent of car...is all that there is.
truth.

Quote:
You guys who think E85 doesn't increase HP are all cute.
no one said that. What we said was, once the turbo is done outputting mass air flow efficiently, there is no power to be gained. The extra bump in power the E85 can give will be there until the turbo is tapped out...where it cant overcome the inefficient hot air being digested and turbine restriction from too much exhaust gasses through a too small turbine outlet.

there will be gains throughout the low and mid range for sure, but you wont see any appreciable bump in peak output.

i tested this in a my feeble brain and the results held true.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:47 PM   #87
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I wish my drivetrain glowed :(
It doesn't even shoot fire anymore now that I've tuned AFR all the way to redline :(

4ft flames are fun (when oil leaks into exhaust...)
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:56 PM   #88
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You suggest that the combined flow of the turbine and wastegate are unable to flow over 310 whp? If that's the case surely a ported wastegate or external will fix allow the setup to make 350.

Dann
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:58 PM   #89
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dann..............omfg


I wish we had a bigger : facepalm :



You and Hyper should meet. Between your logic towards e85 and his towards coolant re-routes, you will revolutionize the car world as we know it


How many cars have you tuned on e85?

Last edited by 18psi; 10-31-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:00 PM   #90
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I seriously hope you are trolling or something.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:14 PM   #91
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only 3.

I'm not trolling. Either way the manifold and exhaust are being done before the change to a 2871 so all results will be posted, I'll post both dyno sheets.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:28 PM   #92
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Mispost. Ignore me.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:35 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
WHP....Until someone yanks an engine and measures its ouput independent of car...is all that there is.
If I could figure out how to wire up my MS3 to my engine outside of the car and how to hook everything up to run, I would try this. My machinist has both an engine dyno and a dynojet. I would love to use the same tune on both and see the differences.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:46 PM   #94
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Quote:
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question for you: do you have a log starting at 2k rpm in 4th or 5th gear showing your boost curve?
I have this same turbo and have seen so many different dyno plots that I don't even know when it spools anymore. I've seen full boost anywhere from 3300 to 3800 on this thing. And in FM's case it was something silly like 4200 (but they're at high elevation so maybe that's why).
I drove the car today. It comes into full boost at 4K rpm. It doesn't seem to matter if it's at 12#boost or 15#; it just hits 4k and goes.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:32 PM   #95
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So if the turbo is flowing 100% capacity then how is e85 going to magically allow it to operate an extra 16%? Where exactly is it gaining this power? magical e85 power land? Do you realize that in order for a power increase you have to have an increase in flow? the crank can't turn any harder or faster unless it can expel the exhaust and get more air/fuel in the chamber.. increasing spark/timing etc... the simple fact is that only x amount of exhaust can pass through the turbo at a time and the variable x has been met already. regardless of the fuel type. e85 will have the same diminishing returns as regular gas as the turbo becomes less efficient. power gain yes but as the boost goes up hp per psi will go down just like every other fuel.

Last edited by krissetsfire; 11-05-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:41 PM   #96
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More timing and lower AIT?
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:56 PM   #97
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Quote:
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More timing and lower AIT?
The thread just keeps getting dumber.


For the last time people: we're talking about EXCEEDING maximum flow. Yes it allows more timing, less knock, cooler combustion, etc. All WITHIN normal/optimum setup flow, ie: under maximum flow.

The turbo is a pump
The engine is a pump

IF either of said pumps are maxed out, or if you reach mbt, no amount of cool AIT's or ignition advance will allow the setup to flow any more, and therefore make any more power.

This isn't rocket science.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:16 PM   #98
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More timing and lower AIT?
so you increase timing.... so now we have more exhaust which still has nowhere to go. did my real world traffic analogy not make sense? so were on the freeway with 4 roads going into 1. you know what how about we widen the 4 lanes into 6 now. that'll fix our traffic jam problem.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:21 PM   #99
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The thread just keeps getting dumber.
This isn't rocket science.
I can't help but laugh at this point though.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #100
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its not rocket science, it's ROCKET SURGERY.
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