BEGi S3 vs FM2 - Page 8 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Would you get the BEGi S3 or FM2 system
BEGi S3 29 31.87%
FM2 62 68.13%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:41 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albumleaf View Post
Holy ****, are you really that ******* dumb? If your MASS INPUTS AREN'T EQUAL THERE'S NO POINT IN COMPARING THE TWO. One apple has less caloric value than two bananas well who the **** cares?

I should show this thread to my old thermo professors, I always wondered what I could do to make them cry. Miataturbo: teaching high school chemistry one post at a time.
It's clear that whatever comparison you are trying to make with your science is not the same comparison that I made in my post. I show how the complete combustion of ethanol involves more fuel and results in more product than the complete combustion of octane with the same quantity of air. What did you read there that's debatable now?
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:43 PM   #142
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I love how albumfgt is so smart yet hasn't actually done dick on a turbo miata on e85. Arguing straight out of a textbook. Go make the power like Dann is going to attempt to do, then come back here and teach us basic high school chemistry, fgt.

lol
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:38 PM   #143
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It's clear that whatever comparison you are trying to make with your science is not the same comparison that I made in my post. I show how the complete combustion of ethanol involves more fuel and results in more product than the complete combustion of octane with the same quantity of air. What did you read there that's debatable now?
What counts is volume produced per mass, not some arbitrary stoich calculation you came up with. Your stoichiometry might be correct, however seeing as your input masses for both equations aren't equal, there's no point in saying one process creates more volume than the other based on the stoichiometric constants in the equation. You're missing a step, that being specific volumes, specifying a temperature and pressure, picking an equivalent mass basis for the reaction, etc.

It's like saying burning one graham cracker makes less H2O than burning two saltines, it might be true but it's not a good means of comparison.

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I love how albumfgt is so smart yet hasn't actually done dick on a turbo miata on e85. Arguing straight out of a textbook. Go make the power like Dann is going to attempt to do, then come back here and teach us basic high school chemistry, fgt.

lol
I wonder who I'm going to trust, basic chemistry and thermodynamics, my background as a chemical engineer, or some ******* on a forum regurgitating things they read on another forum. The things I am writing are proven science, not speculation based on some story you read.

Last edited by albumleaf; 11-04-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:57 PM   #144
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You idiot, what part of "we have tried this before and it didn't work" sounded to you like a story I read on the internet?

Ok, I'm done with this idiotic thread. For real this time.

I'll just sit back and wait for Danns results
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:59 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You idiot, what part of "we have tried this before and it didn't work" sounded to you like a story I read on the internet?

Ok, I'm done with this idiotic thread. For real this time.

I'll just sit back and wait for Danns results
Posted like a true liberal arts student.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:04 PM   #146
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What does all that have to do a maxed turbo? No one is arguing that u wont make more power with e85. Yet u respond to his question directly of the turbo with common uncontested knowledge of e85 vs gas.
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Jesus Christ.

For the sake of simplifying things, say you have 10kg/min input air and fuel. Assume max power gasoline @ 12.5afr, E85 7.0afr

E85: 8.73kg air, 1.26kg fuel
Gasoline: 9.25kg air, 0.75 kg fuel

1.26 kg E85 * 33.1 MJ/kg = 41.70 MJ
0.75 kg gasoline * 47.2 MJ/kg = 34.9 MJ

Here's the amazing part that you keep looking over. MASS IS CONSERVED. 10kg in, 10kg out.

If you move the numbers closer to stoich, the power output/kg advantage moves down to 3% or so for E85 which isn't quite as encouraging, but the fact of the matter is that E85 will make more power without changing the mass flow rate.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:23 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albumleaf View Post
You're missing a step, that being specific volumes, specifying a temperature and pressure, picking an equivalent mass basis for the reaction, etc.
...
I wonder who I'm going to trust, basic chemistry and thermodynamics, my background as a chemical engineer, or some ******* on a forum regurgitating things they read on another forum. The things I am writing are proven science, not speculation based on some story you read.
I'll trust the mechanical engineer.

You can choose to make it more complicated. I don't have apples and oranges or spiders and centipedes or incandescents and LEDS. I do have H2O's and CO2's, and in an ethanol combustion cycle, I have more H2O's and more CO2's to push through the same turbine and wastegate than I do in an octane cycle.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:15 AM   #148
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and with my background as an art student, I was able to go find the buyer of Paul's Monster, fill it with e85, and take it to the dyno.

Here are the results:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg paul310_e85.jpg (362.3 KB, 337 views)
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:42 AM   #149
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I laffed!
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:03 PM   #150
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If you search the googles for plots with e85 and similar sized turbo housings on pretty much any car you will find a lot of the same as brain posted.

The power to be had from e85 is around a 3% difference. The real benefit of switching to it is so you can get a bigger turbo and push more boost without det right? not the 3% gain from the actual swap. Although nobody would complain about 3%. it's definitely not even close to the 30 or 50 hp we're talking about.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:15 PM   #151
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I laffed!
thanks. That was very underappreciated comedy gold.

concidentally, it's really what his dyno would look like.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:18 PM   #152
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Wow did this go off topic or what.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #153
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Anyone care to comment on an FM2R with a GT2860rs?
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #154
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Sure.

It's a turbo kit for a miata. Try reading up on it, there are millions of posts about the FM2 and the GT2860rs.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:00 AM   #155
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Sure.

It's a turbo kit for a miata. Try reading up on it, there are millions of posts about the FM2 and the GT2860rs.
I see what you did there.

Anyone else? I'm talking about the FM2R
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:29 AM   #156
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I see what you did there.

Anyone else? I'm talking about the FM2R
The only real difference with the FM2R is that it's bigger turbos to the best of my knowledge.

So... you could probably get a good gauge on what the FM2R is like with a 2860RS by reading up on what the FM2 is like with a 2860RS.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:10 AM   #157
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Just really going back and forth on the GT2860/3071 or the EFR6258. FM claims the 3071 has same spool as 2860 so there's no reason to run a 2860 because i can run a 3071 and have same power at lower boost and lower operating temps.

On the other hand, some builds make EFR seem like god. Since thread was derailed, just bumping to see if there's any other feedback on those turbos. If I did garrett turbo, I'd probably run FMs kit. Would there be any benefit to paying the extra to get an external wastegate with either of those Garrets?
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:24 AM   #158
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If you're open to spending the money on BB Garretts and high-end FM hardware, there is no reason to not get an EFR.

The EFR will outperform the Garretts in every category.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:31 AM   #159
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I was pretty much set on the EFR but I am looking at other things as options. I'd entertain to get something that will work with an FM manifold and bolt into my MSM that's also another good option. Seems like EFR is going to cost much more money, for a few hundred RPM spool difference? For a car that's recreationally driven on the street, I am not sure if that money is worth spending. GT2860 with .86AR seems popular also and would suit my needs fine. FM2 with gt2860 .86 is cheaper than EFR by a good bit isnt it?

On the EFR side I was going to go with ARTech manifold and downpipe so there's roughly $2500 already.

Not saying you're wrong, but I did a bunch of searching and it seems like a lot of the debates are just dick-swinging contests between people who own one turbo or the other. I'd like to make a decision and NOT choose to go another route 5000 miles later because my choice sucked.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:03 AM   #160
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There is a reason why Indy cars use off-the-shelf EFR's and not another brand.

A few hundred rpm? It's more than that, and the EFR will make more power/torque everywhere.

As far as cost, do you have any parts yet? The 2860 will set you back over a grand, easy. Add in an external wastegate and you're up there with the EFR which will have a better wastegate and an internal BOV. FM hardware is great and reliable, but ARtech hardware is much more efficient.

Have you read these yet?
https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-tim...-6758-a-68914/
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...ild-you-61522/

Soviet's dyno comparing a 6258 (open-loop ebc) vs. a 6758.
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