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Old 03-11-2014, 05:18 PM   #161
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Apparently they also have a secondary gear in them, basically between the gearbox and the rear end gear (but still inside the transmission).
Online there is a lot of confusing about the s2000 gearing. Between generations they changed the 5th and 6th gears and also changed the secondary reduction gear, making the whole gearset a bit wider. A lot of people didnt get the memo on this and think the first 4 gears are exactly the same between generations.

The original AP1 trans had the close ratios, which makes sense since it had the 9000 rpm redline F20C in it.

Theyre definitely still taking some torques



but like I explained in the previous post, its hard to say if theyre actually strong or if its mechanical sympathy in the form of spinning tires.
It is probably safe to assume that theyre stronger than the ol' miata tranny though.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:32 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
the s2k tranny is the most different of the AZ6's. The outer case in no way resembles the rest of them, and the later ones have carbon fiber synchro's. It also shifts amazingly.

The toybaru does have the AZ6 as well. Are there any roadrace ones making crazy power now? I stopped paying attention to them.
I do believe any of them making crazy power are v8/2jz swapped.

Even if the case is different the internals should swap, no? At least in a prefect world.
It could be a less expensive option of those with 6speeds.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:50 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
I do believe any of them making crazy power are v8/2jz swapped.

Even if the case is different the internals should swap, no? At least in a prefect world.
It could be a less expensive option of those with 6speeds.
Not if the s2k have drop gears. Maybe at least the synchros swap, that would be nice. The AP2 synchros are really nice.
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Old 03-11-2014, 06:07 PM   #164
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I am beginning to thing this mythical perfect box does not exist.....

If nothing ideal can be find that leaves me 2 options. Give a Quaife gear set a go or have my box builder contact make me a custom straight cut dog box.

Think i will give Quaife a call tomorrow and see if they can give me any assurances of what the actual gears are capable of. We already know they will give no figures on what box will take but they must have an idea of what the parts they build will take.

would anyone be interested in a straight cut dog box with custom ratios in a OE case? according to the builder it should take anything we could throw at it. Rough pricing fully assembled is $5-6K plus shipping and any standard replacement parts needed.

the ratios i was discussing with the builder were:

ratio - Tooth count
2.583 - 12 31
1.714 - 14 24
1.278 - 18 23
1.000 - 18 18
0.793 - 29 23

Can be built to any ratios but ideally the tooth count should be as low as possible to allow the teeth to be as large as possible to increase strength.

Last edited by mr2daj; 03-11-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 03-11-2014, 06:50 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2daj View Post
would anyone be interested in a straight cut dog box with custom ratios in a OE case? according to the builder it should take anything we could throw at it. Rough pricing is $5-6K plus shipping and any standard replacement parts needed.
Already exists

MX5 Roadster 1st~5th Synchromesh Engagement Gearset - MX5SS-SET : PAR - Precision Automation Robotics
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Old 03-11-2014, 06:57 PM   #166
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what s the cost? is that assembled? if there is already a good option out there why are we all still looking?
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:31 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by mr2daj View Post
what s the cost? is that assembled? if there is already a good option out there why are we all still looking?
Because many are looking for a next to free salvation from a problem.

Someone have to ask PAR about price but it's for any ratios and helical/semi-helical/straight gears. It will not be below $3k and it will be for loose axles/gears.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:53 PM   #168
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Purchasing is currently disabled.
I like the option for the billet 6th gear for $650 AUD (plus GST) unneeded but as they said custom gearing option is free.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:05 PM   #169
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Trying to understand a couple points:

Is it true or not that a dog is inherently stronger in the same space due to space for larger gears? Or put another way, what makes this synchro set stronger than the Quaife offering? I find this video interesting because it is in opposition to what I understood previously, a non-sequential dog street driven:




1) I am noob on this so did not know that not all dogs are sequential and, 2) streetable potentially? (the guy takes his sweet time getting into gear and no, mention at least, of rev-matching)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Because many are looking for a next to free salvation from a problem.
There is discussion about the Quaife synchro set though, which seems like the same ballpark; and reasonable if the upper limit was known. Right?

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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
...and it will be for loose axles/gears.
What does that mean?
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:43 AM   #170
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First hit on google
Synchromesh vs. Dog Box - Gearbox Beatdown - Import Tuner Magazine

Having driven a few dog boxes on the track, I love them. Super fast clutchless shifting.
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:17 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Because many are looking for a next to free salvation from a problem.
There is discussion about the Quaife synchro set though, which seems like the same ballpark; and reasonable if the upper limit was known. Right?
Guessing from the price of the other gear sets the price from PAR would be twice of the Quaife gear set, and similar to many other custom gear sets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
...and it will be for loose axles/gears.
What does that mean?
Some assembly required (as a response to mr2daj).
The price is for the unique parts, labor and all the service parts needs to be added on top, especially if you are comparing it to consuming one unopened junkyard box a year.

PAR have most probably made at least one gear set, but the volume might be too low to keep anything on the shelf. Since custom gears are nothing special, asking for a price will give the price for any setup you want.
But I guess any high end gear set maker can do the same, there are probably more than one in the US.

I like the idea of a dog 6sp being verified (2 years of 350+whp endurance with only oil changes), one have to have dreams for the future.
Who will be first (and why is there no trace of the first PAR set)?
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:44 AM   #172
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Liberty gears and Frana would both make custom gears sets and are in the USA. I would expect $6000 price range for the gears. The plus side is they both have the knowledge to build high hp gears. Their fwd gears hold 1000+ whp drag launches. I talked to Frana a bit about a custom Miata spool, but I wasn't paying $750 for it. At the price of a custom gear set, you could buy a better tranny from g-force

https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gf5r.asp
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:52 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
First hit on google
Synchromesh vs. Dog Box - Gearbox Beatdown - Import Tuner Magazine

Having driven a few dog boxes on the track, I love them. Super fast clutchless shifting.
Yep makes street driving sound hard though under dos and donts, while the first video I find shows a guy saying, "oh bullshit, look..."

Other than the PAR set being available as a 6, we're still just guessing on the ultimate top right? What would make this any stronger than Quaife's synchro set?

Last edited by hankclaussen; 03-12-2014 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:40 AM   #174
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PAR is pretty well known for making indestructible gearboxes.


On the other hand, one of Frana's dogboxes is living in a 1000awhp+ Celica AllTrac that doesn't exactly get babied, either. Not that it sees quite the kind of abuse that the Miatas in question see on the track, but 1000awhp+ is still a fuckload of power.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:44 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
What would make this any stronger than Quaife's synchro set?
Thats why I posted the link. In short, wider gears.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:50 PM   #176
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The shop where I work has an account with PAR, they make our GT-R gearsets. If anyone is serious about that Miata set then I'll look into it after we are back from TX2K14. Shoot me a PM if so.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:07 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Thats why I posted the link. In short, wider gears.
I get that for a dog box, but the PAR box you posted is a synchro so same space constraints right? How would the synchro PAR box have wider gears? What am I missing?
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:46 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
I get that for a dog box, but the PAR box you posted is a synchro so same space constraints right? How would the synchro PAR box have wider gears? What am I missing?
PAR has a bog box conversion for the AZ6. Personally, if I'm spending $4-7k for a race transmission, it won't have synchros.

Further, BAR's (Ron Olsen) AZ6 sequential is probably another year and a half away and will be optimized for EP power. F/I not welcome. While a full sequential is sexy, a good dog box will shift just as fast, only limited by the movement of the H pattern shifter. For now, the PAR AZ6 dog conversion with about a 2.8 1st and maybe .87 6th would be nice.

Last edited by emilio700; 03-12-2014 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:56 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
I get that for a dog box, but the PAR box you posted is a synchro so same space constraints right? How would the synchro PAR box have wider gears? What am I missing?
Well they do have a dog box 5-speed for the Miata, MX5 Roadster Close Ratio Dog Engagement Gearset - MIADS-SET : PAR - Precision Automation Robotics

No good for a street car probably since 1st gear is selected in the 5th gear position. I just think of James May backing his 190E Cosworth into other cars in traffic (though it's a different setup than that at least).
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:02 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Well they do have a dog box 5-speed for the Miata, MX5 Roadster Close Ratio Dog Engagement Gearset - MIADS-SET : PAR - Precision Automation Robotics

No good for a street car probably since 1st gear is selected in the 5th gear position. I just think of James May backing his 190E Cosworth into other cars in traffic (though it's a different setup than that at least).
Its not like they keep these on the shelf, for how much its going to cost, you should be able to get whatever the **** you want, within reason.
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