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Old 03-28-2014, 02:12 PM   #221
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2.8
2
1.52
1.22
1
.87

is what he posted just a few posts ago dude...
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:26 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
We are talking with a supplier (not PAR, Quaife or BAR) to get 6spd gearsets and steel shift forks for the AZ-6. I'm leaning towards one ratio option close to what Andrew and I posted above, dog engagement, helical gears. Torque capacity would be a close to 400lbs as we could get. The Stock AZ-6 is nominally rated for about 200lbs. At 300 + the lifespan gets measured in hours, 400+ measured in minutes.

Target gear ratios, or something near this
2.8
2
1.52
1.22
1
.87


We would have to get about 20 orders. Ball park is about $3100 for the parts kit.
ETA would be roughly 10 months from green lighting the project to you door.

Dog box allows for greater strength but is only happy when banging through gears. Shifting slow on the street can be a PITA. For those that have never clutchless shifted a close ratio dog box, it's only slightly less awesome than a full sequential.

Thoughts?
I'd be in!
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:29 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
2.8
2
1.52
1.22
1
.87

is what he posted just a few posts ago dude...
I must have scrolled straight past it while looking for it 3 times. With 2 as the 2nd gear ratio I'd just need to fine a 3.9 rear end.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:36 PM   #224
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I would like to do this but I wouldn't be able to consider it until close to the end of the year due to funds and currently in the middle of the engine build. Dog engagement sounds pretty awesome.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:29 PM   #225
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If the initial proposal comes back good from the supplier, I'll start a new thread. I'd pay for the tooling and initial deposit so kit deposits wouldn't be needed until Q3 I think. My guess is delivery in Q2/15 or thereabouts.

What I'm considering, and so is the supplier, is the potential for cross platform compatibility between some or all the kit components. IOW, if the 86 kids can haz dogs too, our costs come down even further.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:55 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I must have scrolled straight past it while looking for it 3 times. With 2 as the 2nd gear ratio I'd just need to fine a 3.9 rear end.
Yes by my estimates it would be near perfect for a combination of both autocross and road racing with the ratios Emilio is quoting combined with a 3.909 rear for a 250-400 hp miata.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:23 PM   #227
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Can they do anything about the sloppy as hell feel of the 6-speed shifter gates while they're in there replacing things? I like the 5-speed feel way better than the 6-speed. If my Quaife set blows up, then I'll be next on the list for one of these just out of necessity, but I would never replace the 5-speed/Quaife with one of these proposed boxes if the shifter feels like a normal 6-speed shifter.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:27 PM   #228
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Can they do anything about the sloppy as hell feel of the 6-speed shifter gates while they're in there replacing things? I like the 5-speed feel way better than the 6-speed. If my Quaife set blows up, then I'll be next on the list for one of these just out of necessity, but I would never replace the 5-speed/Quaife with one of these proposed boxes if the shifter feels like a normal 6-speed shifter.
Its completely fixable, the miata roadster shifter makes the 6 speed feel almost as blissful as a newly rebuilt 5 speed shifter. Still nowhere near as amazing as an S2000.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:48 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post

Yes by my estimates it would be near perfect for a combination of both autocross and road racing with the ratios Emilio is quoting combined with a 3.909 rear for a 250-400 hp miata.
With a 4.3 it would suit a N/A racer quite well.
Bit on my tracks the 4.875 works.

However, I cannot join the initial group buy, even though the estimated price is a steal.
$5k for an assembled box (no core) shipped to a container in FL? Just trying to figure out the options (skipping tax on kit and labor would be nice).
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:06 PM   #230
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Definitely interested, but depends on the street manners.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:34 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
We are talking with a supplier (not PAR, Quaife or BAR) to get 6spd gearsets and steel shift forks for the AZ-6. I'm leaning towards one ratio option close to what Andrew and I posted above, dog engagement, helical gears. Torque capacity would be a close to 400lbs as we could get. The Stock AZ-6 is nominally rated for about 200lbs. At 300 + the lifespan gets measured in hours, 400+ measured in minutes.

Target gear ratios, or something near this
2.8
2
1.52
1.22
1
.87

We would have to get about 20 orders. Ball park is about $3100 for the parts kit.
ETA would be roughly 10 months from green lighting the project to you door.

Dog box allows for greater strength but is only happy when banging through gears. Shifting slow on the street can be a PITA. For those that have never clutchless shifted a close ratio dog box, it's only slightly less awesome than a full sequential.

Thoughts?
I would definitely be in. Was trying to get a dog box setup from PAR but they are absolutely terrible about returning emails etc.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:54 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
With a 4.3 it would suit a N/A racer quite well.
Bit on my tracks the 4.875 works.

However, I cannot join the initial group buy, even though the estimated price is a steal.
$5k for an assembled box (no core) shipped to a container in FL? Just trying to figure out the options (skipping tax on kit and labor would be nice).
Im not too afraid of assembling it myself. So far the one I built out of the parts of two broken ones is working fine. I like nice things but The way my budget works my personal labor is free. Doing more myself enables me to buy more things. Im pretty good with mechanical things and Ok at design and fabrication for the things I have the tools for.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:57 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
With a 4.3 it would suit a N/A racer quite well.
Bit on my tracks the 4.875 works.
I chose ratios that can be made to work well at power levels from 140whp to 350whp by just changing rear end ratios. I'd run this on an 8500rpm 170whp N/A build with a 4.3 and a 300whp 7500rpm F/I build with a 3.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
Definitely interested, but depends on the street manners.
This a racing dog box conversion. Sucks on the street if you ever need to drive slow. Do a youtube search on dog box shifting. Basically they only shift smoothly if you shift as fast as you can move the lever and barely lift. Anything other than that and you feel like you're stirring an adjustable wrench in a bucket o bolts.

So "street manners" depends on the civility of your driving habits I suppose.

By eliminating the space taken up for syncros, we can make the gears wider. This is critical to gain torque capacity. Beyond that, a dog engagement can be shifted at <100ms where even the best syncros struggle to get to 150ms even with our twin. Syncros wear out when shifted like that, dogs tolerate it much better. In the real world, every shift will be about 200-300ms quicker with a dog vs syncro. That's time not spent coasting which comes directly off your lap time.

For what you do with your car, I'd stick with our twin clutch and a healthy AZ-6 with MTG in it. Make sure all the shifter bushings are new and properly installed. Useless 1st but 2nd through 6th are great at 160whp/7000rpm
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:59 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
This a racing dog box conversion. Sucks on the street if you ever need to drive slow. Do a youtube search on dog box shifting. Basically they only shift smoothly if you shift as fast as you can move the lever and barely lift. Anything other than that and you feel like you're stirring an adjustable wrench in a bucket o bolts.
Except for the PAR video in this thread where he shows it shifting like a civilized car and that everyone afraid of running one on the street is a giant vagina that only reads things on the internet.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:00 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Except for the PAR video in this thread where he shows it shifting like a civilized car and that everyone afraid of running one on the street is a giant vagina that only reads things on the internet.
vlinky?
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:03 PM   #236
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:13 PM   #237
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FWIW the first car we would put one in is a street licensed 200whp N/A Miata. I don't have any problems driving one on the street but I'll caution anyone not familiar with them to, well, watch the video.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:08 PM   #238
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Definitely interested. Not for the low power n/a car, but for the turbo one. That video doesn't look too bad at all.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:59 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankclaussen View Post
Start stocking them for $3K
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Ball park is about $3100 for the parts kit.
Thoughts?

Well damn, all I had to do was ask? Maybe I should have low balled...


If what Bob is suggesting (DIY assembly) is reasonably plausible for the mechanically pretty OK, I am going to have to serious consider getting seriously.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:03 PM   #240
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I suspect it will be a few weeks before I hear back from the supplier on my proposal. I'll update here for a while. If we decide it's viable and start making drawings, I'll start a new thread.
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