Help me finish 400whp Miata track car. - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Race Prep Miata race-only chat.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-12-2012, 06:15 PM   #21
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 346
Total Cats: -223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
Thanks for all of the advice you guys are great!

It appears that the consensus seems to be that there is no such thing as a reliable 400 whp Miata "or that it is a rare thing. The whole reason I switched from racing high horespower cars (I ran a C5 corvette with 550 whp for two years) to spec Miata is because I hate working on cars while at the track and I do not have a crew.

My set up last year was a spec miata with a Mazda Speed Miata turbo (modified by Blouche) on E85. That set up put down 255 whp. That set up would let me hang with all but the fastest Vettes and Porsches (top 10%). It was a blast but I broke a rod at Mid Ohio last year and decided if I was going to build a forged engine why not go for more power.

Keeping in mind that reliability and low maintenance first (I am OK spending money on good tires) should I shoot for the 300-350 range? Is anyone else out there running a set up like mine at this power level happily? Can I do this with my current turbo 3071 and simply turn down the boost or do I need a smaller turbo or for that matter should I put on my IHI turbo that got me 255 whp with a 94 head on stock engine. New engine has 99 head that is ported. Would that other turbo get me to 300?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance for the help.
Don't worry, if you decide to downgrade turbo's I can find a safe home for yours
Boost Joose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 06:18 PM   #22
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,356
Total Cats: 1,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
What are the major differences in a 300 whp and 400 whp track miata?
-intake manifold
-exhaust manifold
-knock control
-transmission cooler
-differential cooler
-bigger oil cooler
-overpowering factory LSD
-transmission failures (assume one 6sp/yr unless you run a $4000 Quaife box)
-more engine internals (BE gears, ARP main studs, SS/Inco valves all required @400whp)
-exploding CV joints
-significantly increased brake/tire/bearing wear
-heat management

Maybe $20k is a low estimate...

Quote:
What is all of it? What is the limit of the stock crank? Has anyone ever broken one?
Nobody breaks stock cranks, ever, at any power level. It's a forged steel crank.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 06:40 PM   #23
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
Thanks for all of the advice you guys are great!

It appears that the consensus seems to be that there is no such thing as a reliable 400 whp Miata "or that it is a rare thing. The whole reason I switched from racing high horespower cars (I ran a C5 corvette with 550 whp for two years) to spec Miata is because I hate working on cars while at the track and I do not have a crew.

My set up last year was a spec miata with a Mazda Speed Miata turbo (modified by Blouche) on E85. That set up put down 255 whp. That set up would let me hang with all but the fastest Vettes and Porsches (top 10%). It was a blast but I broke a rod at Mid Ohio last year and decided if I was going to build a forged engine why not go for more power.

Keeping in mind that reliability and low maintenance first (I am OK spending money on good tires) should I shoot for the 300-350 range? Is anyone else out there running a set up like mine at this power level happily? Can I do this with my current turbo 3071 and simply turn down the boost or do I need a smaller turbo or for that matter should I put on my IHI turbo that got me 255 whp with a 94 head on stock engine. New engine has 99 head that is ported. Would that other turbo get me to 300?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance for the help.
How did you do at nationals? Do I owe my NASA classing hate to you?

A 400hp reliable Miata racecar is not rare because of a lack of engineering, it's rare because most people who have $20k to drop don't drop it on a Miata because they can already afford Vette tires and brakes.
hustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #24
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 346
Total Cats: -223
Default

A racepak or AIM system would be nice......
Boost Joose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 06:55 PM   #25
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 581
Total Cats: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
A 400hp reliable Miata racecar is not rare because of a lack of engineering, it's rare because most people who have $20k to drop don't drop it on a Miata because they can already afford Vette tires and brakes.
I bought a well built 400 horsepower Miata for $13.2k. It was a steal at that price, but was SIGNIFICANTLY more needy than my ~200hp FMII Miata. I still drive to the track, so an unreliable underthehoodbetweeneverysession Miata just wasn't what I needed. I was more than happy to go running back to my FMII car after getting zero track time at the one event I took the 400hp car to. Part out pending.
nickt93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #26
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,356
Total Cats: 1,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickt93 View Post
I bought a well built 400 horsepower Miata for $13.2k. It was a steal at that price, but was SIGNIFICANTLY more needy than my ~200hp FMII Miata. I still drive to the track, so an unreliable underthehoodbetweeneverysession Miata just wasn't what I needed. I was more than happy to go running back to my FMII car after getting zero track time at the one event I took the 400hp car to. Part out pending.
So it was "well built" but you were under the hood every session and you got no track time at the only event you went to?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 07:43 PM   #27
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickt93 View Post
I bought a well built 400 horsepower Miata for $13.2k. It was a steal at that price, but was SIGNIFICANTLY more needy than my ~200hp FMII Miata. I still drive to the track, so an unreliable underthehoodbetweeneverysession Miata just wasn't what I needed. I was more than happy to go running back to my FMII car after getting zero track time at the one event I took the 400hp car to. Part out pending.
Driving your car home from the track requires a level of preparation and monitoring that exceeds anything this side of professional, big-budget endurance racing. The 10' view of my engine shows a typical, expensive turbo Miata. Grab a mirror and get in close and you'll see things like safety wire on anything and everything attached to the engine, anti-seize on every bolt in the car, thread-lock and safety-wire on the bolts without thread-locker, break-away plastic stuff under the car, fancy greases and lubricants on every friction surface, and heat wrap on every single wire and hose in the car. I laugh at people who don't hide their fancy SS hoses in fire sleeve these days. It makes me feel pretty bad *** at annual tech when the garage stops and every tech comes to look at what I've built/bolted together. Then, they look inside and see an interior that's held together with clear duct-tape and a heavy-layer of filth.
hustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 07:45 PM   #28
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Portales, NM
Posts: 837
Total Cats: 2
Default

Huster I want you in me. If I brought you my Miata with 1.8L in it and everything for turbo kit would you help me do a full tune on it?


/threadjack
jbrown7815 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 07:45 PM   #29
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
So it was "well built" but you were under the hood every session and you got no track time at the only event you went to?
I was really afraid of building a turbo car with the bad reputation our cars had 3-years ago. Today, the turbo Miata is more reliable than the supercharged cars;l the secret is the thought and a holistic understanding of what it takes to race a car for 20-hours, all season long, and never put a wrench on the car. A good example is when people ask what a reliable turbo Miata costs, "price the turbo kit, then double it for items like hoses, cooling parts, and attention to detail among a number of items of which I've forgotten more than I remember.
hustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 08:12 PM   #30
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 581
Total Cats: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
So it was "well built" but you were under the hood every session and you got no track time at the only event you went to?
Yeah, maybe I should have put "well built" in quotes like you did. What probably would have been more accurate to say is that it had "all the right parts" - Carillo H beams, Wisecos, a Quaife in a box waiting to be installed. My point was really just to say that a 400hp car is likely going to require more attention and tinkering than a 250-300hp car.

And, just to set the record straight, I said above that I only took it to one event but didn't get any track time due to a turbo with a bent shaft that locked up. Hard to say who is to blame there - Garrett? It was a low mileage brand new 3071.

Anyway, good luck to the OP. Hopefully he'll have better luck in the world of 400hp Miatas than I did.
nickt93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 08:59 PM   #31
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,356
Total Cats: 1,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickt93 View Post
Yeah, maybe I should have put "well built" in quotes like you did. What probably would have been more accurate to say is that it had "all the right parts" - Carillo H beams, Wisecos, a Quaife in a box waiting to be installed. My point was really just to say that a 400hp car is likely going to require more attention and tinkering than a 250-300hp car.
Fair enough. You have a good point - "all the right parts" doesn't mean the car is put together correctly.

We've been doing R&D at 350whp for 18 months now, which means that we can put together a 250whp package and it will be pretty reliable. 400whp? Call me in another year or so, but bring an oversized novelty check and a ",000" stamp.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 03:11 AM   #32
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 799
Total Cats: 25
Default

You can get a reliable 400whp from an LS3...

An acute interest in making the grid for every session and finishing said session and still being able to drive the car onto the trailer at the end of the day under its own power has kept my goals in the ~275 range. The Corvettes and other high end hardware will pull on you a bit above 120mph but you will still be able to out brake and out corner them if you spend time and money on the non-hp half of the list.
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 03:12 AM   #33
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,782
Total Cats: 119
Default

I will answer what I know:

-Do I need to get upgraded oil pump as I was told the stock one will fail? I was told to get this form Boundary Engineering .

Yes

-Is my Turbo to large and if so what size would be recommended for my goals?

No. GT3071 is a fun turbo. GTX3071 will probably get you to 400 more quickly than GT3071.

-I still have a stock intake manifold and throttle body. What do you recommend for the upgrade on this if it is necessary?

Yes ARTech is making intakes and I recommend his work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
-intake manifold
-knock control
-transmission cooler
-differential cooler
-more engine internals (BE gears, ARP main studs, SS/Inco valves all required @400whp)
-exploding CV joints
OK intake is not necessary. I would run knock control on ANY boosted miata over 180hp. Transmission/diff cooler? Why this? Are you running one? I haven't read of anyone running one on a miata

Oil pump gears, studs, valves aren't that much more in the big picture

Why CV joints sexplode?



Quote:
Originally Posted by nickt93 View Post
but didn't get any track time due to a turbo with a bent shaft that locked up. Hard to say who is to blame there - Garrett? It was a low mileage brand new 3071.
OMG!!!! A garrett turbo shi the bed? Inconceivable!!!!!!!! This surely has NOT happened to anyone else in this thread!



Alternative I would recommend that I am doing is to build for 400+++ HP and then run 250 at the track. I ran a GT3071 for 3 years on a stock block at 10psi or so for 240HP (Ed's Dyno for you locals) and it was still quite fun.

Right now my car probably puts down well over 400 at 25psi and I'm going to tune for 40psi. For the street. But... for track day I will turn down boost to 17ish psi and drop timing...
Faeflora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 03:28 AM   #34
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 799
Total Cats: 25
Default

That's the best way to be reliable. Build for 400whp with maps tuned to crazy boost numbers and then turn everything back to sane levels. Set the boost at 15 to 17, pull a degree of timing or two to back away from the razor's edge. Proper ducting and cooling, good hardware like inconel studs and a little common sense will keep it running. Just avoid the red mist that happens when you could catch that viper with another 20 or 30whp. Paradise is just a few MBC clicks away!!!
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 04:05 AM   #35
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,356
Total Cats: 1,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_hyde View Post
You can get a reliable 400whp from an LS3...
Yep, for about $20k in parts
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 04:15 AM   #36
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,356
Total Cats: 1,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
OK intake is not necessary. I would run knock control on ANY boosted miata over 180hp. Transmission/diff cooler? Why this? Are you running one? I haven't read of anyone running one on a miata

Oil pump gears, studs, valves aren't that much more in the big picture

Why CV joints sexplode?
Intake is necessary if you want to track it. Without it, you have to run more boost to make the power, which taxes the intercooler and the cooling system, and increases backpressure, which will make the motor knock more easily, which means you have to run less timing, which means you'll need more boost, do you see a pattern here?

Tranny and diff coolers because they run hot as ----, nobody can keep a transmission in one of these cars yet, and I suspect that the fluid heating up to unreasonable temps is why.

CV joints explode because you're putting 4x the rated torque through them, constantly, the entire time you're at WOT. If you compare the amount of time spent at WOT, every 30 minute race I do is the equivalent of 50 1/4 mile passes, in a row, without letting the CV grease cool at all.

I'm not talking about 400whp on the street, that's easy as hell TBQH. 400whp on the track is an entirely different ballgame. IMO it's easier to put together a 400whp street car than it is to put together a 250whp track car.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 07:18 AM   #37
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 32
Total Cats: 0
Default

Well thanks again for all of the help. I think I have decided that I do not want the headaches associates with 400 whp track Miata and I will be contacting all of the vendor who helped to finish this build the only question now is if I want to stay in the 300-325 range is my GTX3071R going to big and laggy or can I keep it and turn down the boost? Or do I go for the 2871? Thanks
Buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 08:12 AM   #38
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 346
Total Cats: -223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
Well thanks again for all of the help. I think I have decided that I do not want the headaches associates with 400 whp track Miata and I will be contacting all of the vendor who helped to finish this build the only question now is if I want to stay in the 300-325 range is my GTX3071R going to big and laggy or can I keep it and turn down the boost? Or do I go for the 2871? Thanks
If that's your new plan I would definetly go to a gtx28 housing. I personally like the specs of the new GTX2867, great spool, great top end power(more than the 71) or you could always look at the new borg warner efr's. With the 3071 you wont get full boost until around 4200-4400 rpms. with one of the 28's or borg's, could get it before 3500.
Boost Joose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 02:23 PM   #39
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,309
Total Cats: 1,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
..IMO it's easier to put together a 400whp street car than it is to put together a 250whp track car.
This
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 02:33 PM   #40
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
OEM 16psi rad cap instead of 19psi Koyo/Stant
My 16psi cap is just fine
All I want to say here is that the stock cap is 13psi.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Turbo 1995 Miata Low mileage Clean Tekel Cars for sale/trade 29 02-05-2016 05:16 PM
1991 Turbo Miata partout tottestad Miata parts for sale/trade 18 09-14-2015 08:52 PM
Twitchy car (tail happy problem) bigben Race Prep 16 09-11-2015 04:41 PM
WTB parts for HPDE car Voltwings WTB 5 09-11-2015 09:23 AM
ME221 Now has Autotune and Long Term Fuel Trim Tables Motorsport-Electronics ECUs and Tuning 0 09-05-2015 09:02 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:12 PM.