Instructors come in
11-29-2011, 11:10 PM
#44
Cpt. Slow
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I think you guys are missing the point. There's no doubt, at least I hope, that the instructor is a better driver than the student, and that's the point of having him in the car.
In my mind it's a liability issue. When I do track days and have driver meetings, they say the instructors are never to drive your car much less touch any controls. This is more of a reminder for the instructors, not the driver.
Once he reaches over and grabs the wheel, the driver is free to cross his arms and say "ok, everything from here on out is your fault"
Obviously what happened in the video was somewhere in between, but instructors get in the car knowing the risk. It's why I've had a few in full helmet, fire suit, and hans device as I'm sitting there in jeans and a t-shirt with my motorcycle helmet.
In my mind it's a liability issue. When I do track days and have driver meetings, they say the instructors are never to drive your car much less touch any controls. This is more of a reminder for the instructors, not the driver.
Once he reaches over and grabs the wheel, the driver is free to cross his arms and say "ok, everything from here on out is your fault"
Obviously what happened in the video was somewhere in between, but instructors get in the car knowing the risk. It's why I've had a few in full helmet, fire suit, and hans device as I'm sitting there in jeans and a t-shirt with my motorcycle helmet.
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11-30-2011, 03:50 AM
#47
This particular CTS-V had no brakes at all which the instructor probably didn't know at the time. On the GT3 - At some point we've all passed one being driven nervously by a rich dentist on his lunch hour. Doesn't matter how bad the driver is, it makes me smile every time! 
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11-30-2011, 08:23 AM
#48
Newb
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I believe the liability issue is up to the club. Some clubs absolutely do not want instructors touching the wheel others have no issue with it and even encourage it when necessary. I have been instructing for over 6 years now and racing for 10+ (although being a racer is very different from being an instructor). We grab the wheel when needed. I have had to take it over the years and believe the results were beneficial. We are not full time employees of the track but volunteers who go up because we love the sport (and some free track time), I would not work with a club that does not allow me to do what I feel is necessary to save 1st the people in the car, 2nd others on the track, 3rd the car. We actually do drills each spring where we are put in scenarios requiring us to take the wheel and drive the car off as needed. We practice driving the track from the passenger seat. The situation in the video I cannot speak to, I have never driven that track, was not in the car and can't see enough of what was going on. But the instructor did what he felt was necessary.
I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
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11-30-2011, 08:48 AM
#49
Tour de Franzia
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I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
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11-30-2011, 11:09 AM
#50
I believe the liability issue is up to the club. Some clubs absolutely do not want instructors touching the wheel others have no issue with it and even encourage it when necessary. I have been instructing for over 6 years now and racing for 10+ (although being a racer is very different from being an instructor). We grab the wheel when needed. I have had to take it over the years and believe the results were beneficial. We are not full time employees of the track but volunteers who go up because we love the sport (and some free track time), I would not work with a club that does not allow me to do what I feel is necessary to save 1st the people in the car, 2nd others on the track, 3rd the car. We actually do drills each spring where we are put in scenarios requiring us to take the wheel and drive the car off as needed. We practice driving the track from the passenger seat. The situation in the video I cannot speak to, I have never driven that track, was not in the car and can't see enough of what was going on. But the instructor did what he felt was necessary.
I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.
Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?
I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.
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11-30-2011, 11:30 AM
#51
Tour de Franzia
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I know the C6 style brakes are garbage. I was at Hallett when that car came out and for some reasons the bolts that hold the caliper together pull out the threads and all hell breaks loose. I assume this is why 75% of the C6 I see at the track have APs.
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11-30-2011, 12:40 PM
#52
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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I think there's a responsibility on the student to understand the same risk. Its totally unrealistic to assume you'll be able to go off track at 120mph with no brakes and not **** something up. Who's he going to blame the next time it happens?
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11-30-2011, 12:52 PM
#53
Excellent first post!
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.
Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?
I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.
Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?
I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.
I think it falls on the individual who brings their car out on track to take care of these issues. Its their life at risk after all.
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12-02-2011, 09:43 PM
#54
An off in that corner can/will destroy a car. In the one off I had in that corner I managed to find one of the few paths through that did not damage my car(much). Having said that, I still went airborn in the excursion. A friend of mine was not as lucky with a brake failure in the same place and his car was totalled...
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12-02-2011, 09:49 PM
#55
Tour de Franzia
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An off in that corner can/will destroy a car. In the one off I had in that corner I managed to find one of the few paths through that did not damage my car(much). Having said that, I still went airborn in the excursion. A friend of mine was not as lucky with a brake failure in the same place and his car was totalled...
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12-02-2011, 09:58 PM
#56
My off was a result of going from aero to no aero in consecutive races. I destroyed my splitter putting a wheel off in turn 3 and couldn't finish the previous race. Started at the back of the pack with a bunch of no driving porsche owners and was making a mad dash to get to the front on the first lap. I was hauling *** down that back straight trying to get one last pass in before the braking zone. With aero I could easily make the pass on the inside, dive back onto line briefly hit the brakes and turn in. Without aero, lets just say it was a futile effort with very scary results. People always talk about increased cornering speed with aero but rarely do you hear of the effects on braking. Let me tell you, it has a huge impact on braking.
I've also pirouetted off track while in the passenger seat of a students car in that corner, thank god it hooked and headed toward the inside of the track in that particular incident. There was really nothing I could have done. He was a young guy and pretty good driver....he hit his braking mark perfectly, but then released way too soon, we were carrying way too much speed. He still ALMOST saved it...but almost doesn't quite cut it.
As far as the guy grabbing the wheel, hard to judge when it's not me sitting in the seat.
I've also pirouetted off track while in the passenger seat of a students car in that corner, thank god it hooked and headed toward the inside of the track in that particular incident. There was really nothing I could have done. He was a young guy and pretty good driver....he hit his braking mark perfectly, but then released way too soon, we were carrying way too much speed. He still ALMOST saved it...but almost doesn't quite cut it.
As far as the guy grabbing the wheel, hard to judge when it's not me sitting in the seat.
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12-03-2011, 10:51 AM
#57
i realized how much my ghetto aero was working from the last 2 track days i did. i changed my wing mount to save weight and try to make the wing more effective. doing that affected the angle of attack the wing was at. i figured i'd leave it like that (flatter) maybe i didn't need that much angle. wrong! i was oversteering all over the place, especially the fast corners. after coming in and checking tire psi, shock settings and all was a good, i set the angle back how i had it, still not believing that could be it but it was. the frt/rr balance was back. i had too much splitter to not get the max help from my wing.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
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12-03-2011, 11:12 AM
#58
Tour de Franzia
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i realized how much my ghetto aero was working from the last 2 track days i did. i changed my wing mount to save weight and try to make the wing more effective. doing that affected the angle of attack the wing was at. i figured i'd leave it like that (flatter) maybe i didn't need that much angle. wrong! i was oversteering all over the place, especially the fast corners. after coming in and checking tire psi, shock settings and all was a good, i set the angle back how i had it, still not believing that could be it but it was. the frt/rr balance was back. i had too much splitter to not get the max help from my wing.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
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