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Old 11-29-2011, 09:47 PM   #41
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It's hard to believe the newbs judgement when the newbs first priority of the video is to list his mad tyte mod list.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:20 PM   #42
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It's hard to believe the newbs judgement when the newbs first priority of the video is to list his mad tyte mod list.
He has uber cred because he passed the other newb in a GT3. In otherwords, he can save it since he passed the mother of track cars.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:28 PM   #43
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He has uber cred because he passed the other newb in a GT3. In otherwords, he can save it since he passed the mother of track cars.

Truedat.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:10 AM   #44
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I think you guys are missing the point. There's no doubt, at least I hope, that the instructor is a better driver than the student, and that's the point of having him in the car.

In my mind it's a liability issue. When I do track days and have driver meetings, they say the instructors are never to drive your car much less touch any controls. This is more of a reminder for the instructors, not the driver.

Once he reaches over and grabs the wheel, the driver is free to cross his arms and say "ok, everything from here on out is your fault"

Obviously what happened in the video was somewhere in between, but instructors get in the car knowing the risk. It's why I've had a few in full helmet, fire suit, and hans device as I'm sitting there in jeans and a t-shirt with my motorcycle helmet.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:23 AM   #45
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I have a hard time believing that if you know you might die in a certain off track excursion that you would give a **** about liability. Life>lawsuit
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:34 AM   #46
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And I can't say I've been in the situation, I just like playing devil's advocate, and I believe this is where the Cadillac driver is coming from.
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Old 11-30-2011, 04:50 AM   #47
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So what is the braking performance of a CTS-V at 120mph in grass?
This particular CTS-V had no brakes at all which the instructor probably didn't know at the time. On the GT3 - At some point we've all passed one being driven nervously by a rich dentist on his lunch hour. Doesn't matter how bad the driver is, it makes me smile every time!
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:23 AM   #48
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I believe the liability issue is up to the club. Some clubs absolutely do not want instructors touching the wheel others have no issue with it and even encourage it when necessary. I have been instructing for over 6 years now and racing for 10+ (although being a racer is very different from being an instructor). We grab the wheel when needed. I have had to take it over the years and believe the results were beneficial. We are not full time employees of the track but volunteers who go up because we love the sport (and some free track time), I would not work with a club that does not allow me to do what I feel is necessary to save 1st the people in the car, 2nd others on the track, 3rd the car. We actually do drills each spring where we are put in scenarios requiring us to take the wheel and drive the car off as needed. We practice driving the track from the passenger seat. The situation in the video I cannot speak to, I have never driven that track, was not in the car and can't see enough of what was going on. But the instructor did what he felt was necessary.

I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:48 AM   #49
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I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
I have a friend who had some experience in an EvoX on the track who recently drove a Miata out there. It was pretty interesting to hear his take on how the Evo makes decisions for you.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:09 PM   #50
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I believe the liability issue is up to the club. Some clubs absolutely do not want instructors touching the wheel others have no issue with it and even encourage it when necessary. I have been instructing for over 6 years now and racing for 10+ (although being a racer is very different from being an instructor). We grab the wheel when needed. I have had to take it over the years and believe the results were beneficial. We are not full time employees of the track but volunteers who go up because we love the sport (and some free track time), I would not work with a club that does not allow me to do what I feel is necessary to save 1st the people in the car, 2nd others on the track, 3rd the car. We actually do drills each spring where we are put in scenarios requiring us to take the wheel and drive the car off as needed. We practice driving the track from the passenger seat. The situation in the video I cannot speak to, I have never driven that track, was not in the car and can't see enough of what was going on. But the instructor did what he felt was necessary.

I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.
Excellent first post!
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.

Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?

I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:30 PM   #51
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I know the C6 style brakes are garbage. I was at Hallett when that car came out and for some reasons the bolts that hold the caliper together pull out the threads and all hell breaks loose. I assume this is why 75% of the C6 I see at the track have APs.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:40 PM   #52
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Obviously what happened in the video was somewhere in between, but instructors get in the car knowing the risk.
I think there's a responsibility on the student to understand the same risk. Its totally unrealistic to assume you'll be able to go off track at 120mph with no brakes and not **** something up. Who's he going to blame the next time it happens?
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:52 PM   #53
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Excellent first post!
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.

Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?

I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.
Not really a plausible idea. Soon enough you will have GT3 drivers complaining that miatas are too slow and are a road hazard. Plus who determines that the brakes are inadequate? who keeps that list? what dictates the the brakes suck? stock pads? inadequate cooling? bolts that don't stay in place?

I think it falls on the individual who brings their car out on track to take care of these issues. Its their life at risk after all.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:43 PM   #54
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An off in that corner can/will destroy a car. In the one off I had in that corner I managed to find one of the few paths through that did not damage my car(much). Having said that, I still went airborn in the excursion. A friend of mine was not as lucky with a brake failure in the same place and his car was totalled...
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:49 PM   #55
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An off in that corner can/will destroy a car. In the one off I had in that corner I managed to find one of the few paths through that did not damage my car(much). Having said that, I still went airborn in the excursion. A friend of mine was not as lucky with a brake failure in the same place and his car was totalled...
I almost went into the pond coming out of the triple-apex, CW at MSR-C. Oops.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:58 PM   #56
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My off was a result of going from aero to no aero in consecutive races. I destroyed my splitter putting a wheel off in turn 3 and couldn't finish the previous race. Started at the back of the pack with a bunch of no driving porsche owners and was making a mad dash to get to the front on the first lap. I was hauling *** down that back straight trying to get one last pass in before the braking zone. With aero I could easily make the pass on the inside, dive back onto line briefly hit the brakes and turn in. Without aero, lets just say it was a futile effort with very scary results. People always talk about increased cornering speed with aero but rarely do you hear of the effects on braking. Let me tell you, it has a huge impact on braking.

I've also pirouetted off track while in the passenger seat of a students car in that corner, thank god it hooked and headed toward the inside of the track in that particular incident. There was really nothing I could have done. He was a young guy and pretty good driver....he hit his braking mark perfectly, but then released way too soon, we were carrying way too much speed. He still ALMOST saved it...but almost doesn't quite cut it.

As far as the guy grabbing the wheel, hard to judge when it's not me sitting in the seat.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:51 AM   #57
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i realized how much my ghetto aero was working from the last 2 track days i did. i changed my wing mount to save weight and try to make the wing more effective. doing that affected the angle of attack the wing was at. i figured i'd leave it like that (flatter) maybe i didn't need that much angle. wrong! i was oversteering all over the place, especially the fast corners. after coming in and checking tire psi, shock settings and all was a good, i set the angle back how i had it, still not believing that could be it but it was. the frt/rr balance was back. i had too much splitter to not get the max help from my wing.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:12 PM   #58
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i realized how much my ghetto aero was working from the last 2 track days i did. i changed my wing mount to save weight and try to make the wing more effective. doing that affected the angle of attack the wing was at. i figured i'd leave it like that (flatter) maybe i didn't need that much angle. wrong! i was oversteering all over the place, especially the fast corners. after coming in and checking tire psi, shock settings and all was a good, i set the angle back how i had it, still not believing that could be it but it was. the frt/rr balance was back. i had too much splitter to not get the max help from my wing.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.
Stop posting this ****, I have no money!!!! Don't "talk all sexy like" about aero anymore.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #59
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Stop posting this ****, I have no money!!!! Don't "talk all sexy like" about aero anymore.
lol, you have $200. if not stop drinking for a week and you will. you already admitted to having a spare trunk.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:52 AM   #60
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Trey needs an apocalypse front end!
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