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Old 11-27-2012, 01:30 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi View Post
With all this talk of the new wings being developed and the COTA wing being better (more downforce, less drag) etc.

Is the 3d wing currently available a bad wing?

Or a good wing but better available ?

I thought it was "optimised" for the miata...?
a 3d wing would be your best bet IF it was optimized to work for the Miata's aerodynamics. What you get from APR is not optimized for the Miata and is basically the same wing for each platform.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:12 AM   #62
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I don't see anything wrong with using a practice wing. If they've got tethers, they're the real thing regardless of provenance. I think there's a sticker on the wing as well showing that it's race-legal. Great deal, Ryan. Does your source have more?

About the Gurney flaps (aka wickerbills) on the COT wing - you can use standard aluminum angle. I forget what size, but I had one that slipped right in. My wing came with the flap removed.

Some of the end plates are actually aerofoil shaped. Obviously not the best choice for someone who wants to turn right. It wouldn't be hard to build your own flat end plates although you'll give up about two inches of span that way. One interesting note on mine was this little wickerbill on one end plate.
My source is the same as everyone - I just hunted for the right deal on eBay and jumped on it when it showed itself. Most of the legit COT wings are $500 or so. This one was $400 or best offer and $50 shipping - and the configuration I wanted, so I offered $350 and they went for it.

When I removed the carbon gurney on mine I had that very thought - that it seemed like 1/16" aluminum angle would slide right in there as a replacement if one wanted to try different gurney sizes or needed to replace it. That's good info.

The version I got had traditional endplates - I was careful to not get one of those with the molded ends, because then you lose airfoil width by removing them to run your own. I can't quite tell from your pictures, it looks like you are using the COT endplates, and that they might have airfoil extensions molded into them? Is that the case and what is the overall width of yours with endplates/without? Mine is 54" for the airfoil itself, and the endplates aren't part of the airfoil width so I don't lose width by making new endplates.

-Ryan
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:37 AM   #63
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This guy has 4 of them - but like Ryan says, he's asking the ave at $525

NASCAR RACE USED CARBON FIBER WING WITH TEATHERS AND REMOVABLE END PLATES COT | eBay
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
The version I got had traditional endplates - I was careful to not get one of those with the molded ends, because then you lose airfoil width by removing them to run your own. I can't quite tell from your pictures, it looks like you are using the COT endplates, and that they might have airfoil extensions molded into them? Is that the case and what is the overall width of yours with endplates/without? Mine is 54" for the airfoil itself, and the endplates aren't part of the airfoil width so I don't lose width by making new endplates.

-Ryan
Yes, those are COT end plates. The aerofoil is 54" wide, the end plates add an extra 1" of aerofoil section at each end for a total of 56".
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by GeneSplicer View Post
This guy has 4 of them - but like Ryan says, he's asking the ave at $525

NASCAR RACE USED CARBON FIBER WING WITH TEATHERS AND REMOVABLE END PLATES COT | eBay
FYI, I just used the "best offer" feature like Ryan did and this guy accepted at $350. That's $395 shipped. Can't beat that with a stick!
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:06 PM   #66
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I love this thread.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:45 PM   #67
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FYI, I just used the "best offer" feature like Ryan did and this guy accepted at $350. That's $395 shipped. Can't beat that with a stick!
You beat me by $5! Niiiiice!

I wonder how many of these are out there in the world... seems like a decent supply, but they aren't making them anymore, and probably didn't make all that many.

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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Yes, those are COT end plates. The aerofoil is 54" wide, the end plates add an extra 1" of aerofoil section at each end for a total of 56".
Aha so all the airfoils were constructed the same, the difference is just in the endplates so you get extra width. I see why you chose to keep those endplates. Their design isn't great though.

-Ryan
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:04 AM   #68
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This thread makes me want to put a wing on my car even though I have ZERO need for it
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:06 AM   #69
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Its all about the bling brah.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by rlogan View Post
Here is more info than you would ever want to know on the Liebeck (M06-13-128) and many others:

http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/u...il-Data-V2.pdf

I am glad you asked this question because the above database has been offline for some time now...glad to see it's back.
Wonderful gem of info here - I had not known what design the COT airfoil was until now.

To make info/data easily retrievable for everyone - I know Andrew asked - I have taken some screenshots of the pages which are relevant and added the descriptions of the pages taken from the table of contents:

*pics removed because they were of the wrong airfoil - see rlogan's post below for correct ones*

The "Liebeck Airfoil" was designed by Bob Liebeck.

Quote:
Liebeck’s thesis was titled “Optimization of Airfoils for Maximum Lift,” a topic suggested by Ormsbee and the late A.M.O. Smith of Douglas, who encouraged him to continue the research. The revolutionary devices are now called “Liebeck airfoils” in the industry. Originally designed in the ‘70s for high altitude airplanes, a Liebeck airfoil will be used in the NASCAR Car of Tomorrow scheduled to be unveiled this year.

In his spare time, Liebeck has designed wings for Indianapolis 500 and Formula One racing cars, the keel for the yacht that won the America’s Cup in 1991 and the wing for a World Championship acrobatic airplane, an unmatched triple crown. “This could be summarized as victory on land, sea and air,” he said.
Badass dude.

-Ryan

Last edited by ThePass; 11-30-2012 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ThePass View Post

Aha so all the airfoils were constructed the same, the difference is just in the endplates so you get extra width. I see why you chose to keep those endplates. Their design isn't great though.

-Ryan
Relax, it's not a dick measuring contest It's early days, I'm going to do some testing to see what the airflow looks like in that region of the car and play with angles. Once I've got those points figured out, I might play with end plate size to see what effect it has. I figure these end plates were good enough for the original NASCAR application, so they'll probably work well enough for now.

I should be able to pull my wing and mounts off the car today to send to Paco. He'll take measurements and should be able to cut out some copies pretty quickly. If you're potentially interested in one, drop me a line at [email protected]. If I can come up with a good measurement location so we can pass the numbers to him, he should also be able to adjust the mounting position up/down and back/forward if you prefer.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Relax, it's not a dick measuring contest
You guys let me know if you need a micrometer.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:30 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Relax, it's not a dick measuring contest It's early days, I'm going to do some testing to see what the airflow looks like in that region of the car and play with angles. Once I've got those points figured out, I might play with end plate size to see what effect it has. I figure these end plates were good enough for the original NASCAR application, so they'll probably work well enough for now.
Oh definitely not, just suggesting that as great as it is already performing you can probably really improve the setup with custom endplates. But you're of course already thinking the same I'm excited to see this airfoil getting some proper R&D on a few miatas now. Can't wait to be doing some of my own soon.

-Ryan
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:19 PM   #74
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I misspoke on the airfoil ID. There have been several Liebeck designs through the years and the COT is one of the newer ones. It is similar to the predator airfoils.

It looks to be something along the lines of:

LNV109A

LNV109A (lnv109a-il)

If you want to play around with it in javafoil, here:

JavaFoil - the Applet

And you can get the coordinates here:

UIUC Airfoil Data Site

There is a "geometry" tab on the applet where you paste in these coordinates and select "update view".

Once you have the coordinates in you can go to the "Flowfield" tab change angle of attack and run an analysis to get Cl/Cd Re numbers. I usually turn on "colored field" and "Streamlines"

See attached sample at 10 degrees AOI...of course this assumes clean air which is never the case behind a race car. It will let you compare different airfoil designs and their efficiency.
Attached Thumbnails
New Wing to Test-cot_wing.jpg   New Wing to Test-cot_wing2.jpg  
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:57 AM   #75
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I was in the garage today and took a look at the profile of the airfoil and was going to come into this thread and say that it doesn't look like that earlier Liebeck airfoil, but you beat me to that with the proper info, thanks!

I will edit out the screenshots I posted above of the other Liebeck design so that people don't get confused.

I actually came across the Predator airfoils last night, which is a really killer looking wing. You're right, the COT looks quite similar to it.

Lift/Drag data for airfoils always assumes clean air I would think... this way you can compare apples to apples between different airfoils.

I played with JavaFoil a bit. Really cool to see the differences at different angles of attack.

-Ryan

Last edited by ThePass; 11-30-2012 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:10 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_hyde View Post
Thinking out of the box, would there be an advantage to the aero at the back of the car if they pushed or pulled air together or apart by reversing one of the airfoils? I know they are formed CF so a mold 'negative' would need to be made. Would you want to increase the pressure to fill the void back there or pull more air out?
Back to this for a second. You could use the airfoil end plates to increase the downforce on the wing, but it would really require dual cross section endplates. With the upper section of plate shaped to put the high pressure side above the wing and the lower section shaped to put the lower pressure inside. I wouldnt expect a very large increase from this. But I did run a few 3d air flow sims of my wing and you can certainly see that you dont have as large a pressure differential near the end plates, but I didnt run too many of those because they take hours rather than minutes like the 2d sims.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:33 PM   #77
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The wing mounts have been modeled, I should have an estimated cost on Monday. Again, if you're interested, drop me a line. Volume will have an effect on price. We did change the angle of the bends so a normal hinged trunk lid can be opened a bit further.

Attached Thumbnails
New Wing to Test-right%2520side%2520na%2520wing%2520mount%25202d.jpg  
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:03 AM   #78
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Thanks for taking this on...
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Trboboost91 View Post
FYI, I just used the "best offer" feature like Ryan did and this guy accepted at $350. That's $395 shipped. Can't beat that with a stick!
Good advice, I just offered $350 and he took it... maybe I should have gone lower but apparently I will also have a $395 shipped wing. Ready for those NB mounts now Keith.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:47 PM   #80
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Wing came today.
Was a little dissapointed it didn't have the carbon gurney flap.
Guess ill have to go buy some angle aluminum.
Guy did a hell of a job packing though.
Mine has a carbon wickerbill on one of the end plates.
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