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I asked this question on the FB group, and only got one or two responses. Although discussed here are there in this thread, I was looking for thoughts on 180 vs 205 degree thermostats. I am tempted to purchase a 205 given I have a street car that will see autox regularly and hpde around 4-5 times a year. Thoughts?
Personally? For me? 205° oil thermostat for ALLTHETHINGS ...if not higher.
Remember that just like the thermostat in your cooling system, the thermostat in your oil cooler circuit sets the minimum temperature for your oil. The ability of the heat exchanger to shed heat sets the maximum temperature. If you exceed the capacity of the cooler, the oil overheats. Simplistic I know, but I believe it's a solid way to think about it.
Personally? For me? 205° oil thermostat for ALLTHETHINGS ...if not higher.
Remember that just like the thermostat in your cooling system, the thermostat in your oil cooler circuit sets the minimum temperature for your oil. The ability of the heat exchanger to shed heat sets the maximum temperature. If you exceed the capacity of the cooler, the oil overheats. Simplistic I know, but I believe it's a solid way to think about it.
Thanks. I bought a 205...it fully opens at 221. I was told optimal temps for most oils is around 230-240 under hard use.
The ImporvedRacing thermostatic plate doesn't have a 1/8npt port unfortunately, same as Setrab/Mocal. If I want oil temp I'd have to run a remote filter mount to gain the extra port, or put it in the pan the next time I pull the motor however that won't be for a while if everything goes well lol
The Mishimoto seems to be the only thermostatic sandwich plate that also has a 1/8npt port and differnt thermostat options. I'm going to contact ChaseBays and see if they have differnt thermostat options.
The ImporvedRacing thermostatic plate doesn't have a 1/8npt port unfortunately, same as Setrab/Mocal. If I want oil temp I'd have to run a remote filter mount to gain the extra port, or put it in the pan the next time I pull the motor however that won't be for a while if everything goes well lol
The Mishimoto seems to be the only thermostatic sandwich plate that also has a 1/8npt port and differnt thermostat options. I'm going to contact ChaseBays and see if they have differnt thermostat options.
That's why I went with the external thermostat and run their remote mount with 1/8 NPT.
That's why I went with the external thermostat and run their remote mount with 1/8 NPT.
Yeah I might go that route, the other option is to use the Setrab extender that has the 1/8npt ports, the only thing I don't like about that is adding potential leaks like a remote filter would but not gaining the added oil capacity or filter options.
If I go remote, I wanted to mount the filter vertically but no real space to do that in my car once everything is in it, the next best place would be behind the passenger headlight either upside down but I think filter changes would be a mess. 90 might be the better option there.
Was looking at the settable remote filter mount but 92mm to run a fat filter.
I hadn't really considered an inline option but that would be simple, cheap, and effective. So only downside is temps may not be 100% accurate as it's getting to temp but should work just fine once it's to temp so I see no issues there. Thank you for the idea.
Also received a response from Setrab and they don't offer different temp thermostats for remote unit, which I believe is the same one ChaseBays uses so that sucks.
I hadn't really considered an inline option but that would be simple, cheap, and effective. So only downside is temps may not be 100% accurate as it's getting to temp but should work just fine once it's to temp so I see no issues there. Thank you for the idea.
Also received a response from Setrab and they don't offer different temp thermostats for remote unit, which I believe is the same one ChaseBays uses so that sucks.
It'll be accurate the whole time. Thermostats don't completely cut off flow to oil coolers they just slow it down and bypass MOST of the oil. So if you put that on the output of the thermostatic plate there shouldn't be any lag on reporting temps as it warms up.
Darn, had I known of that RaceFlux above, I’d probably used that with the Mocal thermostatic plate.
I recently stacked a Setrab sandwich plate to my Mocal thermostat. No problems so far. A few lessons learned along the way:
just because a thermostatic sandwich plate has a 1/8NPT port, doesn’t mean it’ll support a temp probe. A pressure sender yes, but temp senders are longer, and thermostatic plates have enough internals to potentially interfere.
A temp sender is accurate when there is flow. Trying to adapt a 1-way remote oil line that is meant for oil pressure senders, or adding a tee to the oil pressure port on the block won’t work very well. I know you know this, but for anyone else considering…
Most Autometer gauges usually include a brass adapter if you want to put the sender in the oil drain plug. Just a little low on a Miata for my taste. But in a pinch, there you go,
Setrab Sandwich plate - at $65ish, not terribly priced - well manufactured, but only 2 NPT ports. but at 90* offset from one another, was a little weird. On the bright side, the ports are biased further off the block; it’s thick enough to comfortably position a fat VDO oil pressure sender with warning post if needed. The anodizing is top notch.
I don’t have any experience with the cheaper oil sandwich plates, but I do like that the NPT ports are generally biased to one side.
I prefer to keep everything oiling related as simple as possible. I’m running the sebtrab thermo plate with the a mini gm temp sensor in the pan. Next time I’m eliminating the thermo plate. IMO it is not needed for turbo applications. The turbo appears to increase the oil warm up rate substantially. It is true that the condensate boils off faster at a higher temp but it’s just not as much of an issue as most think. The oil receives energy in the form of heat and agitation from the moving components. Both increase the evaporation rate. Running the oil at 180-200F for moderate periods will not result in saturation or a reduced oil ph. Many hp applications run lower average temps in lower output situations in order to have some headroom for extended HO use.
It'll be accurate the whole time. Thermostats don't completely cut off flow to oil coolers they just slow it down and bypass MOST of the oil. So if you put that on the output of the thermostatic plate there shouldn't be any lag on reporting temps as it warms up.
I think I was watching the video of the Mishimoto plate and they used clear hoses so you can see and it looked like lots of air was passing thru the coolant lines and not so much oil I think that's why I made that assumption, even that video may just be a perception issue with the color of the oil.
Originally Posted by RunninOnEmpty
Darn, had I known of that RaceFlux above, I’d probably used that with the Mocal thermostatic plate.
I recently stacked a Setrab sandwich plate to my Mocal thermostat. No problems so far. A few lessons learned along the way:
just because a thermostatic sandwich plate has a 1/8NPT port, doesn’t mean it’ll support a temp probe. A pressure sender yes, but temp senders are longer, and thermostatic plates have enough internals to potentially interfere.
A temp sender is accurate when there is flow. Trying to adapt a 1-way remote oil line that is meant for oil pressure senders, or adding a tee to the oil pressure port on the block won’t work very well. I know you know this, but for anyone else considering…
Most Autometer gauges usually include a brass adapter if you want to put the sender in the oil drain plug. Just a little low on a Miata for my taste. But in a pinch, there you go,
Setrab Sandwich plate - at $65ish, not terribly priced - well manufactured, but only 2 NPT ports. but at 90* offset from one another, was a little weird. On the bright side, the ports are biased further off the block; it’s thick enough to comfortably position a fat VDO oil pressure sender with warning post if needed. The anodizing is top notch.
I don’t have any experience with the cheaper oil sandwich plates, but I do like that the NPT ports are generally biased to one side.
That's a great point on the depth of the sensor, I hadn't thought of that. Even with the raised port on the RaceFlux I could see it being an issue with some sensors. I think the sensor I plan on running should be ok though; https://www.summitracing.com/parts/irp-lc5-100. The benefit of the RaceFlux adapter is the ease of installation now and if/when I decide to move the sensor to the pan it's easily removed with no need for remaking any oil lines. I think I'm going that route with a Mocal or Setrab thermostat plate.
Originally Posted by LeoNA
I prefer to keep everything oiling related as simple as possible. I’m running the sebtrab thermo plate with the a mini gm temp sensor in the pan. Next time I’m eliminating the thermo plate. IMO it is not needed for turbo applications. The turbo appears to increase the oil warm up rate substantially. It is true that the condensate boils off faster at a higher temp but it’s just not as much of an issue as most think. The oil receives energy in the form of heat and agitation from the moving components. Both increase the evaporation rate. Running the oil at 180-200F for moderate periods will not result in saturation or a reduced oil ph. Many hp applications run lower average temps in lower output situations in order to have some headroom for extended HO use.
I think the general consensus is there is no downside to running the thermostat and only upsides at least with a quality sandwich plate. My car is dual purpose and will be driven year-round, although we only get "winter" for a few days a year max lol
I prefer to keep everything oiling related as simple as possible. I’m running the sebtrab thermo plate with the a mini gm temp sensor in the pan. Next time I’m eliminating the thermo plate. IMO it is not needed for turbo applications. The turbo appears to increase the oil warm up rate substantially. It is true that the condensate boils off faster at a higher temp but it’s just not as much of an issue as most think. The oil receives energy in the form of heat and agitation from the moving components. Both increase the evaporation rate. Running the oil at 180-200F for moderate periods will not result in saturation or a reduced oil ph. Many hp applications run lower average temps in lower output situations in order to have some headroom for extended HO use.
You are still extending the warm up period for oil by eliminating the thermostat and also opening the door to possible overcooling in certain scenarios. If you think you have to run the oil at a colder operating temp in order to have a "reserve" of thermal capacity for high load, then your cooling solution is insufficient. It's the same argument that people use for running a drastically lower temp coolant thermostat so that it takes "longer to warm up when you beat on it" and it is a bandaid solution at best.
There is an acceptable operating temp range and being on the low side for a slightly longer period during warm up is not an issue. I'm recommending cool in the ideal range to be able to handle spike thermal loads as in road racing etc. As I had mentioned in a turbo application the oil temp increases at faster rate then a NA car with the heat exchanger. It is very important to have an oiling system that is reliable and consistently functions at the expected level. I have seen many systems that have extra coolers, larger plumbing and fans that increase the capacity, but ultimately cause catastrophic failure. Usually the main reason is air accumulation where the oil is slow, where there is a relative large cross sectional area. Also high mounted components and unexpected failed devices as in fans etc. You do what you want, but I'm offering information that I have collected from 30yrs of engine building and development. The miata is a small vehicle and packaging is a factor. The KISS method is always best with oiling systems.
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
You are still extending the warm up period for oil by eliminating the thermostat and also opening the door to possible overcooling in certain scenarios. If you think you have to run the oil at a colder operating temp in order to have a "reserve" of thermal capacity for high load, then your cooling solution is insufficient. It's the same argument that people use for running a drastically lower temp coolant thermostat so that it takes "longer to warm up when you beat on it" and it is a bandaid solution at best.
A pure race car can probably get by without the thermostat, but it seems like that might be a poor choice for a dual-duty street/track car that has to also handle commute traffic in near-freezing temperatures. The trubo isn't going to be adding much extra heat in that situation.
There is an acceptable operating temp range and being on the low side for a slightly longer period during warm up is not an issue. I'm recommending cool in the ideal range to be able to handle spike thermal loads as in road racing etc. As I had mentioned in a turbo application the oil temp increases at faster rate then a NA car with the heat exchanger. It is very important to have an oiling system that is reliable and consistently functions at the expected level. I have seen many systems that have extra coolers, larger plumbing and fans that increase the capacity, but ultimately cause catastrophic failure. Usually the main reason is air accumulation where the oil is slow, where there is a relative large cross sectional area. Also high mounted components and unexpected failed devices as in fans etc. You do what you want, but I'm offering information that I have collected from 30yrs of engine building and development. The miata is a small vehicle and packaging is a factor. The KISS method is always best with oiling systems.
Taking longer to get to operating temperature increases wear.
If you need to hang out in the low end of the operating range to handle spikes in thermal load, your cooling system or ducting is not adequate for the intended use.
As far as reliability and consistency, you have not eliminated any potential leak points as a thermostatic sandwich plate uses the same number of connections as a non-thermostatic sandwich plate. In the exceedingly rare event that the thermostat fails in the closed position (I've never seen it happen first hand for a decade now), your oil temperature engine protection that you should have configured in your ECU will alert you and limit power/RPM so you can address the issue.
You don't need multiple oil coolers, you don't need plumbing larger than -10an, and you don't need dedicated oil cooler fans. I never mentioned any of these things. I also never mentioned mounting, cooler positioning, air accumulation etc, since I was only talking about the use of a thermostat and an appropriately sized and ducted oil cooler.
Yes the Miata is small, and packaging is a factor but a thermostatic oil sandwich plate takes up pretty much the same amount of space as a non-thermostatic sandwich plate. And the oil cooler doesn't need to be absolutely massive. Reasonably sized units can get the job done just fine.
You may have 30 years of experience and that's respectable, but unless you can provide sound reasoning/logic alongside your statements, that doesn't mean anything to me. The KISS method isn't a very good methodology to broadly apply to oiling systems. Look at dry sump setups. Superior performance and vastly more complicated most of the time.
The warm up interval claim is valid for certain applications just not so much for this one. This application does not have a 6-10kmi oil service interval, not used for many short trips without any warm up as with a grocery getter or your average automobile. Thermostatic sandwich plates do fail, if it doesn't open it relies on the bypass port which is more restrictive. Also they do interrupt the flow of the oil which is a whole other topic. There are many plausible theories that just have nearly no value for certain applications. I'm just trying to make a post with some practical information. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I’d like to present my application of the info presented in this thread for your consideration slash roasting!
I was donated this Aeroflow unit from a good friend upgrading. There’s a Saas sensor sandwich plate behind the mocal to space it out.
This is a 1.8 block but it had the short 1.6 threaded rod.
Built the lines and mounting myself.
I already had an oil temperature sensor in the sump, so did not add any extra sensors here.
May the racecar gods smile upon me and it has no leaks!
02-28-2022, 11:28 PM
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