OEM. It's a completely stock, used VVT motor that I swapped a VICS onto. Run with a MSPNP1 and VVTuner setup. Savington has a good point. 3 years is about all I get out of a track motor.

However, no pictures in the area of concern.

I think what I'm really trying to determine is if I need to go:
Sandwich => -10AN adaptor => Straight -10AN female hose end
vs
Sandwich => -10AN adaptor => 90 degree -10AN female hose end

I don't want to buy a kit, and then have to purchase additional fittings to make it work. And, If I can be spoon fed, I don't have to re-invent what has been solved before.

You never notice the problems no brace causes until you go to take the manifold apart. All studs hold in there fine forever, second you put a wrench on them to take them out they snap off.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ebbe0939f6.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...495822cc78.jpg
Here is another data point for you, I modified the orm manifold brace by cutting out the portion that hits the filter, i have 15 hrs of track time and 8k mi and the brace has not cracked yet

Indeed, sorry about that.

In the area of concern, I used a filter relocation block with -10an 45 degree fittings that are angled upward and rearward in the direction of 10 o'clock. As one fitting is central to the block and the other is offset, I experimented with the block and fittings loose but attached with hoses until I had the ideal arc up to the filter location.

Because there is no stack of filter + sandwich plate to accommodate, it is fairly easy to route and maintain the maintain the brace.

Oh, of course. By filter relocation, you avoid most issues, but loose the direct thermostat.

Thanks for the further reply.

The filter block (shown in the photos) contains a thermostat that opens at 180f. The cooler is bypassed for most flow when the temp is low. Is that what you mean by 'direct thermostat'?

Same function. I was not as familiar with those (not familiar with the others really).

I was referring to the sandwich plates that have the T/Stat right there at the block, and was picturing the T/Stat on the remote oil mount to be kind of like the water T/Stat on a M-Tuned reroute. However, I understand what you are saying, that the oil from the block is always circulated up to the remote filter assy, with the thermostat.

This is is what I have attached to the block in place of the filter:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7bd31b12a9.png

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...db6e6443a3.png
And this accepts the filter mounted remotely, contains the thermostat that diverts to the oil cooler when up to temp. It also has ports for temp and pressure sensors.

That would be this one?
Looks like the perfect piece for cooler and relocation at the same time. Does anybody else have experience with this?

This thread reminds me I need to start logging oil temps... I turn lots of RPM

I followed the link to that GREX filter relocation/oil cooler adapter, but I can't find what temperature the thermostat opens at?

Try rhdjapan.com
They use Celsius for the units. 160f to 180f.

There's also this one, which is offered with 185 and 215 degree thermostats:

Remote Engine & Transmission Oil Filter Mount with Thermostat ENV-170

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...27c429aa5e.jpg

I'll be the naysayer and say that I could never see the logic in a remote filter setup. It is a bunch of added cost, lots of extra fittings and leak points, and a bunch of extra hoses just to make the filter easier to reach. I just don't struggle that much to reach the filter in these cars the 2-3x a year I have to do it.

Please see post 362. I agree, especially since I have a lift. I am just wondering if I should try to get you to substitute straight hose => female -10AN to mate with the sandwich plate male -10AN fittings? Granted I may just have to get in there and find out. Help me buy stuff from you.

.

I kinda like the idea of a larger filter for less pressure drop. It's also gives me more room for an intake brace.

Go with straight​ fittings whenever you can, if you have to use a 90 use the tube style sweeps and keep them to a minimum.

From a functionality standpoint, it's definitely worse, and it's certainly possible to make a monstrosity of adapters.

OTOH, if you do it with 4 crimped hoses and no adapters it may have fewer leak points than an average execution of a normal oil cooler setup.

I'm not even sure a straight fitting would fit there. The adapter is surrounded by the subframe/motor mount below, starter motor behind, IM above, and alternator in front. All the setups I've ever done have used a 90 on the bottom with the lines running under/around the alternator.

On my 1.6 I was able to do a 90 pointing up. With a gauge plate between the block and the sandwich plate. The 1.6 IM is quite different though. On the 1.8 I did 2 90s pointing down.

Ordered the kit. With posts showing already, where to mill / sand / grind the support and keep it, I should be able to. Will report back when finished.

At the first trackday at the Algarve circuit with this car (02 NB2 stock engine with I/H/E) I had severe issues with oil temps.
Ambient temps were 28-30C (82-86F) at most for the day, with 60-70% rel. humidity and low altitude ~100m ~ 300ft

I was able to do at most 2 10/10ths laps before oil temperatures reached ~135C (275F), and the cam angle sensor took a crap, needing to cool down for a few minutes.
This happened consistently for all sessions throughout the day. My coolant temperatures never exceeded 93C (200F) with the stock radiator
(I run with stock undertray and I added an aluminium bent plate bolted to it that seals agains the bottom of the rad. The rad is also sealed on the top and passenger sides, not fully tape sealed, but good enough for current power levels)

While back put together my own oil cooler kit (similar to TSE): Mocal Plate with 180F thermo, AN10 fittings and hose and a Setrab Proline 19 rows with 310mm wide matrix(the TSE ones are the 235mm matrix iirc).
This should be about the same useful matrix area as the TSE 25 row.

I really want to run it behind the radiator for safety (its also a street car) and for ease of maintenance, hence why I oversized it (this car wont be boosted, will be an NA build so I can flog it without worries while keeping costs low).
I placed it vertically behind the radiator on the passenger side right next to the driver side fan.
Some pics of how its mounted (minus ducting between radiator and itself, thats going to be done as soon as I upgrade to a bigger radiator, besides some simple neoprene and aluminium tape):

Attachment 237119
Attachment 237120
Attachment 237121

There is quite the gap between both rads, which will be reduced with a thicker radiator.
With my ghetto ducting with neoprene and aluminium tape on the top, bottom, loose on the passenger side and between the driver side fan (just on the top side, so still hole on bottom part) I ran in 3rd @ 6000-6500rpm on the highway for a good 5 minutes (5 speed, speed was about 110-120kph ~ 68-74mph) with 1-3 car lengths behind traffic and I saw about 110C ~ 230F oil temps

Is this okay? Will be a while till I have another trackday.

What do modest power (150-160whp) NA track cars in high heat areas in the US run at usually with 90F weather?

More importantly: if I put this in front of the radiator, but on the top section (so its not directly visible from the bumper mouth), would that prove to be significantly more efficient?

I have a Rev built MS3 incoming, so the Cam angle sensor issues should stop being a problem until much later, but id also like to keep oil temps at or under 120C/240F, from what ive read on these forums.

Hello,

I've mounted the 13 row Setrab oil cooler with the Mocall thermostat sandwich plate onto my NA 1,6 turbo block with the water coolant reroute mounted. All parts are new, out of the box.
As known, the Mocall sandwich plate works with a bypass so the oil flows constantly thru the oil cooler even when the thermostat is still closed (closed under 86°C = 186,8°F)
I have an oil sensor mounted in the oil sump and this reads temperatures of 65°C = 149°F with the engine fully warmed up driven normal on the street. (outside temp 25°C = 77°C) The temperature reading in the sump is correct and checked with an infrared measuring tool. So this is far too low and not healthy

My first thoughts were that the 13 row oil cooler was too big. I switched this one for a 7 row cooler with same results. temp still too low... I added some duckt tape to the oil cooler to block the air flow. The oil temp is now 70°C = 158°F. Still too low.

The Mocal sandwich plate is mounted directly onto the 1,6 block without any spacer, with the 90° oil lines mounted to the upper side. The cooler is mounted between the radiator and crankshaft pulley

Question1:
How can I test the thermostat mounted onto the block? knowing that there is always oil flowing thru the cooler at any temperature?

Question 2:
If the thermostat is in perfect working order, what can be the problem of this overcooling issue?

Question 3:
I've read a few posts about mounting a spacer or 1,8 oil cooler between the Mocal sandwich plate. Is this only to have enough room for mounting the oil lines or is this to prevent an oil route problem?


Thanks in advance

Just to be technically correct, the thermostatic sandwich plate is always open to the oil cooler (fail-safe) and has a built-in bypass port. The purpose of the thermostatic element is to open the bypass port at low temperature and close the bypass port at high temperature. This is opposite to your description and is also opposite as compared to a water thermostat.

Be aware that a sump sensor will often read quite a bit lower than the temperature of the oil that is actively being circulated through the engine, especially with street driving. The sump itself is a heat sink and is finned for air cooling. Some of the oil in the sump can also be relatively stagnant. This temperature difference becomes less with the oil flows and heating experienced with track driving, but is still there. So before you become overly concerned, it would be best to get a measurement of the oil actively being drawn from the sump. Try pointing the IR measuring tool at the oil filter case instead of the sump.

As for your questions:

1. If your thermostat is working correctly (i.e., bypass port open at low temperatures), you should be able to flow a liquid through the plate with the oil cooler ports blocked at room temperature. You could also place it in a pot of water that you gradually heat on a stove to observe the movement. Remember, open at low temperature and closed at high temperature.

2. Make sure you are really overcooling first. The oil should at least be coming up to the temperature of the engine coolant as that is the dominant temperature unless you are operating at high RPM. Also, the oil takes MUCH longer to warm up than coolant. Once the coolant is at temperature, I'd continue to drive for at least 15 minutes before expecting the oil temperature to be stable on the street. A lot less time if you are on track, of course.

3. Spacer is mainly used for mounting lines for those of us that want the lines feeding out the bottom where all the engine ribbing is. Spacer is also a good place to mount a temperature sensor. Downside of the spacer is that it adds leak points.

Personally I found that the 186* thermostat was not enough for street driving. And the 205* thermostat worked much better.

Probably depends on what "street driving" means. I've got the lower temp thermostat and don't have issues, even in winter. But my commute is ~40 miles almost all at 60mph or above and a lot at 70mph+. So, I'm mostly 3-4K RPMs. My oil always settles about 10 degrees above water temp (usually 195-200 water and 205-210 oil).

A short commute, low speed or lots of stop-and-go would completely change that. Oil cooler is really a track mod. I'm considering pulling it off my daily to optimize AC performance.

"winter" ;)

There is absolutely no reason to not run a 205*F thermostat. We stopped stocking the 180*F a very long time ago.

^hes also the cheapest place to get the 205* plate. Everywhere else charges a premium over the 186*

Hello Hornetball,

thanks for your helpful reply!


The temperature of 65°C in the sump is reached after 30min driving on the road and stays there all the time. I did an IR temp reading on my buddy's stock Miata. The oil temp in the sump was 88°C after 20 min street driving...
Thats the reason why I still think my oil temp is far too low. When I point the IR to the oil filter or Mocall thermostat housing, values are about 86°C.

So, still concerned about the low oil temperature. Cooling temp is about 90°C, oil temp about 65°C in the sump. Still think this is no good.

more advice on what I should do would be welcome.

Reading about the difference in temperature that people are noticing from the oil pan to the sandwich plate, has anyone considered the effects of air cooling on the outside of the sensor on the oil pan?

On another car with the oil pan bolt around subframe height, I noticed that with the undertray off, indicated oil pan temps dropped from around 75C steady state to 55C on the motorway, but as soon as I stopped, they jumped back up. However, when I put the undertray back on, insulating the sensor with the 3D printed shroud below (clips over the sensor and drain plug assembly and is covered around the underside, except a small opening for the sensor wires) upped the steady state motorway cruising temperature to around 82C, suggesting that even with an undertray directly under the sensor, significant cooling of the sensor was still occuring. Perhaps this could explain some of the difference seen between the oil pan and sandwich plate measurements.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9831fae57a.jpg

I've ordered the 205°F thermostat also.

thanks guys!

Thanks to gtred, savington, and sixshooter for advice. Also one other guy whose name escapes me, who also ran a duct beneath his FMIC. I got the 16 row kit from TSE, and mounted the cooler above my I/C by hanging it with a couple of angle pieces, bolted to the horn bolt locations. Hoses go across the top of the O/C, down around the '99 A/C receiver, through the Anti-Sway mounts (with folded plastic sheet to protect them from the bolts) and then to the T/Stat adapter. I moved my P/S cooler from above the I/C to below it (temporarily Ty-wrap until I can get some bosses welded to the I/C).

Stock tray is in place with minimal annular space around the charge pipes, then trimmed at the front where it used to screw to the air director, but now connected to the front ducting piece with push-rivets.

I will have to edit this later to give oil temps, as the gauge is not yet installed.

BUT, between 100 degree days last year, and this year;
1) I ducted the front with plastic sheet, bypassing about 2" below the I/C, and sealing the sides very well. Under tray is also in place.
2) Installed the O/C
3) Did a coolant return re-route.

EDIT: In the location on my daily commute, where, with A/C, I would hit 235*F CLT last year. This year I'm at 205*F. The MAT did not take a hit.

Pic below is what I did to make the IM support to be able to keep it. Works with standard oil filter. Possibly a little more material removal would allow for a larger filter.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9ab87a49da.jpg

Relief in Support

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f00e41487c.jpg

Another view

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7b1758a5e3.jpg

O/C above I/C

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...941838f864.jpg

Pic of ducting going below I/C, and the P/S cooler in part of that space.

I believe its possible to just order just the 205°F thermostat insert for the housing, rather than ordering the entire housing again. I'm unable to find the PN at the moment, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

You know, now that you already ordered it :party:

This is the actual temperature of the oil that your pump is drawing out of the sump.

IR thermometers are pretty inaccurate when used on aluminum, so I wouldn't trust that number very far. They assume that the object emitting the IR has a black body spectrum, most stuff is pretty close, but the emissivity of aluminum is pretty far off.

--Ian

Napa Gold and Wix XP series filters have black bodies, is that close enough? :giggle:

Generally speaking, the more reflective something is, the lower its emissivity (and the further from an ideal black body spectrum it is). Black paint is probably fairly accurate, but you'd need to check it to be sure.

--Ian

Size and location of the cooler also matter. Being that you have a large cooler mounted behind the radiator, I expect that the heated air leaving the radiator serves a warming role for the oil cooler to some 'degree'. At a certain temperature, the threshold is reached, at which the warm air serves a cooling role. It would be interesting to know that threshold in various conditions. Front mounted coolers surely behave differently.

Has anyone mounted a fan to their cooler? I've been considering ducting a cooler in but I'm space limited so I was thinking of mounting it to my undertray and slapping a temperature controlled fan to the 25row and having it kick on w/e temps get above a threshold (undetermined, maybe 225-250*?) - It's not ideal (fan had a 330 cfm rating) but certainly would be better than just leaving a cooler hanging with no ducting no?

Edit; This is the fan I was looking at. Unsure yet how control it yet though. $170 is a lot better than the Setrab vendors are selling the official 'kit' which includes a new radiator with it for ($400+)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3fa9a8e982.jpg

I believe Mocal/Setrab sells a thermoswitch setup for this specific purpose? Can't find it atm because phone, but like the tooth fairy, I believe it exists somewhere.

Do you have an oil temp sensor going to your hydra? Did your car used to have AC? If so you could probably use the AC fan wire to run that fan based on oil temps.

At least that is how I would do it on my Ms3.

They do but the one I found has a ON temp of 190 which would basically leave it always on if I put the 205* tstat in. There might be other (unlisted) options, I've emailed Setrab to inquire.

Good idea, I don't have A/C on this shell (did on my last one though..) if I have the outputs I could have the Hydra kick on a relay. I'll have to see what the draw on the fan when ramping up/running would be. Amps are gonna be tight once I put lighting in.

Another idea I had was to place the oil cooler parallel with the ground (on top of the undertray) and cutting a hole in the tray and putting a small gurney flap in front of the hole to draw hot air down and out to below the car, but I don't want to overcool my car since we get some cold days up here. I just wonder how effective 330cfm would actually be though.

That is very common on race cars where pakaging is very important and real eastate is at a premium

BUMP>>>>> Just curious how to handle an enduro car (8, 12, 24 hour races). Stock 1.8 na motor, stock radiator & oil temps 250+, have lost 2 motors. Car owner needs some direction.

Without more information no one can help you. Do you have an oil cooler?

What is the failure mode? Is it rod knock due to a bad bearing from oil or lack of pressure, Pistons gouging the cylinder wall due to overheating, or is it Rod through the block possibly due to stretched stock rods?

Ducting is usually the most common problem. All of the air that enters the bumper mouth must be forced to go through the radiator and not escape around the bumper cover into the wheel wells, underneath the car, or over the radiator. This usually calls for lots of plastic or metal paneling, sealing tape, and sometimes foam padding to block openings. It must be perfectly sealed. Stock cars fail on the street without proper ducting and undertray. Even more so on the track.

Beyond that a coolant reroute from 949 racing or similar will make a big difference. Additionally, sourcing a larger, competently designed radiator from them or from track speed will take you the rest of the way there with a stock engine. But none of this is any good without sealed ducting. Once you have sealed ducting, a reroute, and a properly designed radiator you should not see any overheating ever at stock power levels. I didn't need an oil cooler in the Florida heat on track until I reached the top side of 200 horsepower with a turbo.

What oil are you using?

We run a Champ/Chump car with a refreshed BP4W in an NA running an OEM radiator. All our races are in the Southeast (KY, GA, FL). Four things we do to keep oil temps down.

1. Use the factory oil cooler. Contrary to what most people think, they do work to keep the oil temps down after warm-up.
2. Coolant reroute. The cooler the water temp is, the cooler it'll keep the oil temp.
3. Ducting. Same as No. 2, more efficient radiator = less heat in oil.
4. Don't over fill the oil! If you're motor is burning/loosing oil, fix or rebuild it. We've seen a 10-15° increase in oil temps when we've added even as much as .5qt of oil more than needed. It whips the oil up and reduces its heat capacity.

Number 4 surprises me. I usually run a little extra oil for starvation prevention.

We run right at top of the stock dip stick (presumed to be the matching one to the motor). We usually burn/loose a little oil (.25qt or less) in a 2 hour stint. At the start of a race someone had added oil twice to the motor and we were seeing 250+ oil temps. As it burned down it the temps dropped to 230-240° which is right about normal for our summer races. We run Redline 5w30 Race. If the oil gets whipped up by the crank too much, it gets air bubbles in it which don't transfer heat as well (at least that's the theory I was told).

Car is basically stock w/o oil cooler or "big radiator". Also starting a build on a second car for the same purpose.

SIXSHOOTER. Thanks for your thoughtful response. We do not have ducting and are running the stock radiator. Lost both motors due to rod/bearing failure. One at High Plains and the other at Hallett. Car owner runs various oil brands, generally a 10w40 weight.

Ducting, reroute, bigger radiator, proper oil, problem solved.

If you are racing you should be using racing oil. It won't solve the problem by itself but it can be a little more forgiving when the temps get out of normal operating range.

Well, as a quick google search will tell, its not abnormal to see miatas with near 300F oil temperatures without any oil cooling.
First step is to definitely add one. Trackspeed sells a kit with various setrab cores which appears to be very inexpensive for the components you are getting, so much so that its basically a no brainer rather than piecing all the parts yourself.

As said, dont bother removing the OEM oil cooler/warmer unless its rotten or something.

TIL about running high oil levels.

A lot of Spec Miata racers run 20W racing oil at the bottom of the dipstick to keep it from frothing, and have no troubles maintaining pressure with oil that light, and an oil level that low. I run mine halfway between L and F. If I run it any higher than that, the balance ends up in the catch can under track forces.

Since I just track my (normally aspirated) car for fun and don't have to follow any rule book, I put the equivalent of a Trackspeed oil cooler kit in front of my radiator. Between that and the Koyo radiator (with proper ducting and sealing), I see a peak coolant temp of 208F and a peak oil temp of ~230F in the Texas summer heat. For oil, I run Mobil 1 0W40 and drain it every 8 track hours, but if I were actually racing, I would use a proper racing oil.

If you are running only 1 fan, you can put a large cooler, like an 11x11 Long TruCool, behind the radiator and utilize the fan mounts and save a little money. Racer Parts Wholesale sells inexpensive kits based on Mocal, Aeroquip, and Long parts.

.

Thanks everyone. This confirms what I have believed. It is not just one thing but a few details. It is the Miata way. We typically see 250+ oil temps and 210 to 215 coolant. And we run for 8+ hours this way. I will pass this along to the owner (I am just the wrench).

Is there any advantage to eliminating the piston squitter's in a na motor? What disadvantages?

What about Rotella Synthetic T6 for oil

You guys actually have that much faith in Miata dipstick readings?

I usually take a few readings and if one of them looks like the oil is between MIN&MAX I pray that it's correct.

Not sure if this is a Mazda thing, my SP23 is hard to read too - never had issues with other manufacturers.

Given how sensitive rotary engines are, you'd think that Mazda of all companies would have idiot-proof, easy-to-read oil dipsticks!

Start from empty.
Insert 4qt.
Read dipstick.
Take note if not correct on dipstick.
Re-mark dipstick if necessary.