Slow in, fast out is for chumps.
09-04-2012, 02:08 PM
#1
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Slow in, fast out is for chumps.
Per this Jalopnik article by Alex Lloyd.
Read article, then discuss.
The theory is sound and for most amateurs it is the easiest way to learn without over-stepping the mark. But the fact is it is also the easiest method to teach. It is far harder to teach an amateur driver how to release the brake efficiently and roll additional speed into the bend, but still maintain the same solid exit speed. Just because it is the easiest, simplest method to instruct, doesn't mean we should believe it to be gospel. Because it isn't.
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09-04-2012, 02:32 PM
#2
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It should be gospel for beginners, since it forces them to torch the bad habit of early turn-in and early apex. Advanced drivers can start to carry more speed to the apex as long as they're aware of where that apex needs to be in order to get the exit right.
Beginners can lose multiple seconds on crappy corner exits. Advanced drivers will find the last few tenths in corner entry speed.
Beginners can lose multiple seconds on crappy corner exits. Advanced drivers will find the last few tenths in corner entry speed.
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09-04-2012, 02:33 PM
#3
Obviously, the fastest way around any race track is fast-in, fast-out.
The problem is when you try to go too "fast-in" and you completely botch the exit. 2mph at corner entry is not worth 2mph at corner exit. For most beginners and amateurs, concentrating on slow-in, fast-out leads to the best lap times and most consistent.
Lloyd is talking about the difference between mid-level pros and top-level guys, measuring in the difference of hundreths of a second. Most people reading this article are probably seconds slower than an average amateur, and probably should be taught slow-in, fast-out.
Now if you are a top level amateur, who can maintain mid corner speed and always maximize corner exit, then maybe you should take his article to heart and start working on improving your corner entry speed.
The problem is when you try to go too "fast-in" and you completely botch the exit. 2mph at corner entry is not worth 2mph at corner exit. For most beginners and amateurs, concentrating on slow-in, fast-out leads to the best lap times and most consistent.
Lloyd is talking about the difference between mid-level pros and top-level guys, measuring in the difference of hundreths of a second. Most people reading this article are probably seconds slower than an average amateur, and probably should be taught slow-in, fast-out.
Now if you are a top level amateur, who can maintain mid corner speed and always maximize corner exit, then maybe you should take his article to heart and start working on improving your corner entry speed.
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09-04-2012, 02:40 PM
#4
I would think this article would be common sense. As others and the article have stated any beginner or amateur should probably learn "slow in, fast out" as this is really more of a way to learn proper technique before completely pushing the limits of the car. I would think though, like anything else, as you become more experienced you would try to carry more momentum into a turn as you understand the limits of the car more as well as the proper line for the turn. Maybe because of my lack of any real racing experience I am seeing this wrong but nothing in that article struck me as a secret but just common sense. He basically said that the best drivers tend to be faster in the turns by trying to be faster everywhere instead of just on the exit.
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09-04-2012, 02:47 PM
#5
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It should be gospel for beginners, since it forces them to torch the bad habit of early turn-in and early apex. Advanced drivers can start to carry more speed to the apex as long as they're aware of where that apex needs to be in order to get the exit right.
Beginners can lose multiple seconds on high entry speed, bad apex and thus crappy corner exits. Advanced drivers will find the last few tenths in corner entry speed.
Beginners can lose multiple seconds on high entry speed, bad apex and thus crappy corner exits. Advanced drivers will find the last few tenths in corner entry speed.
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09-04-2012, 05:00 PM
#8
Of course fast in fast out is the best way to great lap times, but you gotta be a shoe to do it consistently. I would venture a guess, that most that drive track days or race at the club level will benefit most from the slow in fast out approach. A missed appex with slow in fast out has much less drama than when you miss it while pushing the limits.
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09-04-2012, 09:41 PM
#9
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Carroll Smith mentions this exact thing in his book Drive to Win. In fact many famous drivers have said the hardest thing for them to learn was how to brake, especially how to release the brake efficiently.
You want brake just enough to get you slowed down to your max corner speed, but you also want to do it at the last possible second, and you want to do as much of it while trail braking as possible. (note that most schools won't teach you trail braking either)
Its hard as hell, because not only do you need to know what your max corner speed is (and feels like) but you need to be able to trail brake at the limit of adhesion, while that limit transfers from 100% braking to 100% cornering, and without upsetting the chassis. Not only that, but you you need to mentally extrapolate all of this through time to know just how late you can start to brake. Its ******* HARD! not to mention dangerous, because if you truly are at the limits of adhesion while trail braking, the slightest mistake will put you in the wall or into the car next to you.
You want brake just enough to get you slowed down to your max corner speed, but you also want to do it at the last possible second, and you want to do as much of it while trail braking as possible. (note that most schools won't teach you trail braking either)
Its hard as hell, because not only do you need to know what your max corner speed is (and feels like) but you need to be able to trail brake at the limit of adhesion, while that limit transfers from 100% braking to 100% cornering, and without upsetting the chassis. Not only that, but you you need to mentally extrapolate all of this through time to know just how late you can start to brake. Its ******* HARD! not to mention dangerous, because if you truly are at the limits of adhesion while trail braking, the slightest mistake will put you in the wall or into the car next to you.
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09-05-2012, 02:28 AM
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09-05-2012, 10:34 AM
#14
Had read this, enjoyed, and almost posted.
It seems intuitive, but the premise of the article is flawed. "In like a lamb, out like a lion" isn't outright gospel, it is gospel for beginners, guys like me that have next to no experience going fast on four wheels. There were many stages of progression that I saw when tracking a motorcycle that had to be gospel before I could discard them and move on. Doing otherwise would have been dangerous, and is for many. A guy still working on looking where he's going doesn't need to worry himself about proper suspension loading until after a few track days.
While not quite as dire on four wheels, it's an important progression, and the "fast in fast out" technique to shave tenths of seconds will be found out when drivers are at that point.
Still a great article.
It seems intuitive, but the premise of the article is flawed. "In like a lamb, out like a lion" isn't outright gospel, it is gospel for beginners, guys like me that have next to no experience going fast on four wheels. There were many stages of progression that I saw when tracking a motorcycle that had to be gospel before I could discard them and move on. Doing otherwise would have been dangerous, and is for many. A guy still working on looking where he's going doesn't need to worry himself about proper suspension loading until after a few track days.
While not quite as dire on four wheels, it's an important progression, and the "fast in fast out" technique to shave tenths of seconds will be found out when drivers are at that point.
Still a great article.
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09-05-2012, 11:14 AM
#16
It's not as easy as people think. I have friends all the time that make the statement that I should let them drive my race car. I tell them no problem, give me the 45k replacement cost and you can have a go at it. They look at me like I've lost my mind.
Most don't understand what a prized possession our track day or race cars are, or how quickly things can go wrong in the hands of those that think it is easy.
Most don't understand what a prized possession our track day or race cars are, or how quickly things can go wrong in the hands of those that think it is easy.
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09-05-2012, 02:05 PM
#17
Carroll Smith mentions this exact thing in his book Drive to Win. In fact many famous drivers have said the hardest thing for them to learn was how to brake, especially how to release the brake efficiently.
You want brake just enough to get you slowed down to your max corner speed, but you also want to do it at the last possible second, and you want to do as much of it while trail braking as possible. (note that most schools won't teach you trail braking either)
Its hard as hell, because not only do you need to know what your max corner speed is (and feels like) but you need to be able to trail brake at the limit of adhesion, while that limit transfers from 100% braking to 100% cornering, and without upsetting the chassis. Not only that, but you you need to mentally extrapolate all of this through time to know just how late you can start to brake. Its ******* HARD! not to mention dangerous, because if you truly are at the limits of adhesion while trail braking, the slightest mistake will put you in the wall or into the car next to you.
You want brake just enough to get you slowed down to your max corner speed, but you also want to do it at the last possible second, and you want to do as much of it while trail braking as possible. (note that most schools won't teach you trail braking either)
Its hard as hell, because not only do you need to know what your max corner speed is (and feels like) but you need to be able to trail brake at the limit of adhesion, while that limit transfers from 100% braking to 100% cornering, and without upsetting the chassis. Not only that, but you you need to mentally extrapolate all of this through time to know just how late you can start to brake. Its ******* HARD! not to mention dangerous, because if you truly are at the limits of adhesion while trail braking, the slightest mistake will put you in the wall or into the car next to you.
Most of my mistakes come during an unexpected change mid-corner - occasionally I'm still too hot, and I've got to scrub off more speed than I thought (goodbye rear traction), occasionally it's because I have to react to someone who has come off the line or the pace (no mirrors on motorcycles, so they don't even know I'm there), and too often, I've overestimated traction on a wet or drying track.
"Fast-in" most definitely shaves whole seconds vs. "slow-in", but it can be a motherfcuker too.
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09-05-2012, 07:15 PM
#19
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The MAJOR mistake I was making on my first HPDE was turning in WAY WAY WAY too early. . . and sometimes with too much speed.
Slow in fast out is a guideline I'll continue to follow until I have a few more days under my belt and know my car better.
Slow in fast out is a guideline I'll continue to follow until I have a few more days under my belt and know my car better.
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