Trackspeed's '02SE "Acamas" - EFR6758, TSE motor, 500whp or bust
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 18,643
Total Cats: 1,870
From: Beaverton, USA
Make sure to set the baseline ethanol percentage. Its in the flex sensor menu. If you leave it at zero then your baseline pump will be read as E10(ish) and will have some of the blending happening.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Actually, when I was getting the error, I had it set up to only use the alternate tables exclusively if the sensor read above 100%. I wonder if VEAL will tweak on VE3 with a 75% blend if I set the blending table up so that 70% Ethanol = 100% VE3?
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Nope. It won't even tweak on VE1 - it gives me an Overrun condition exclusion even during steady cruise. I remember reading something about that on MSExtra...
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
Filled the tank completely with E85 this afternoon and ethanol content is up to ~78%. Pretty happy with that for unaltered pump E85. I will try the other "local" station next time I need a fillup to see what their blend is like.
The Overrun issue from last night must have been something else. I was able to simply turn the table switching for fuel and AFR targets off and autotune happily cranked away on VE1 without a care in the world. I will get the tune dialed in fairly close, set my blending curve to switch to VE3 fully by 70%EC (ethanol content), then drop this map into VE3, drop my old gas map into VE1, and I'll be done. At the same gasoline AFRs, VE3 wants to be about 5% lower above 90kpa, ~10% leaner between 40kpa and 90kpa, and 15-20% leaner at idle. That makes sense from what I remember about fuel multipliers for E85.
Hey @18psi, where do coldstarts on E85 really start to become an issue? I ran Theseus on E85 for a while, but I was never forced to coldstart that car. The '02 cranked for a few more seconds than normal this morning, but it did fire up on the first hit. I have my cranking fuel maps loaded into the E85 position for now, so it's just running cranking/warmup/enrichments off of my gas numbers with a flat ~143% multiplier across the board for now.
All in all, this has been a really easy process.
The Overrun issue from last night must have been something else. I was able to simply turn the table switching for fuel and AFR targets off and autotune happily cranked away on VE1 without a care in the world. I will get the tune dialed in fairly close, set my blending curve to switch to VE3 fully by 70%EC (ethanol content), then drop this map into VE3, drop my old gas map into VE1, and I'll be done. At the same gasoline AFRs, VE3 wants to be about 5% lower above 90kpa, ~10% leaner between 40kpa and 90kpa, and 15-20% leaner at idle. That makes sense from what I remember about fuel multipliers for E85.
Hey @18psi, where do coldstarts on E85 really start to become an issue? I ran Theseus on E85 for a while, but I was never forced to coldstart that car. The '02 cranked for a few more seconds than normal this morning, but it did fire up on the first hit. I have my cranking fuel maps loaded into the E85 position for now, so it's just running cranking/warmup/enrichments off of my gas numbers with a flat ~143% multiplier across the board for now.
All in all, this has been a really easy process.
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Elite Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,298
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From: Santa Clara, CA
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That's why he has that big *** gold chebby. 
Monterey County needs some god damn E85 before I'm willing to make the leap. I've got all the hardware and none of the motivation.
Monterey County needs some god damn E85 before I'm willing to make the leap. I've got all the hardware and none of the motivation.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
I finally got it in this weekend (along with a forged longblock, ID1000s, squaretop, and new proto clutch parts).
Initial impressions are that it is a tiny bit laggier and a tiny bit less responsive. Essentially exactly what I was expecting. It's hard to pin down exactly how much of that is the turbo (5mm larger compressor, same turbine) and how much is the motor (8.6:1 instead of 10:1). I will say that it's far, far more responsive than something like an FM2R setup. The turbo noises are about a million times better when broadcast through the larger inlet. It sounds like a big-turbo Supra or something equally crazy.
I still need to swap in a Fuelab FPR, DW300, and D585 coils before I'm ready to turn up the power, but I need to get the motor fully broken in first. The next 500 miles are going to be agonizing
Initial impressions are that it is a tiny bit laggier and a tiny bit less responsive. Essentially exactly what I was expecting. It's hard to pin down exactly how much of that is the turbo (5mm larger compressor, same turbine) and how much is the motor (8.6:1 instead of 10:1). I will say that it's far, far more responsive than something like an FM2R setup. The turbo noises are about a million times better when broadcast through the larger inlet. It sounds like a big-turbo Supra or something equally crazy.
I still need to swap in a Fuelab FPR, DW300, and D585 coils before I'm ready to turn up the power, but I need to get the motor fully broken in first. The next 500 miles are going to be agonizing
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 18,643
Total Cats: 1,870
From: Beaverton, USA
Ooooh. Videos plz. I want to hear the noises. I cannot wait to get mine up and running.
What is your break in procedure?
Need any LS coil brackets?
What is your break in procedure?
Need any LS coil brackets?
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The cooling system was also on the ragged edge of acceptable. This is my first attempt at making a 200whp turbo car work on track with a full air conditioning system, and it's proving to be quite the challenge. Adding a reroute, dedicated radiator duct, and 14" SPAL fan helped substantially, but I was still limited to 3 laps before a full cool-down lap was required. I think the next steps are a fully shrouded SPAL fan setup, converting to E85, and swapping the tired old A/C condensor with either a new OEM unit or potentially a smaller custom unit that doesn't block so much of the airflow to the radiator. I've never been a fan of shrouds on race cars, but for a street car with an A/C condensor...
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 18,643
Total Cats: 1,870
From: Beaverton, USA
A quick change of direction, and a peek into the future. One of the many things we'll use this chassis to develop is a T5 swap kit, and this is the beginning of that development. The box is a -238 code from a 1996 3.8L Mustang, which is desirable for a few reasons:
For people who want a 100% bolt-in solution, you'll have to shell out $1100 for a new T5z box, but converting the V6 box to V8 spec is easy. You need the input shaft, bearing, bearing cover plate, and a shim kit, all of which can be had for ~$140 or so, which means you can put the gearbox itself together for well under $300 without any special one-time deals or hard to find parts.
The clutch disc was $110 and it's a performance organic disc with a 10-spline T5 center. It will get swapped for a 26-spline piece when I do a G-Force gearset next year. All the G-Force boxes are set up around 7.18" input shafts (V8), not the ~7.8" shafts that came in the V6s, so in order to accomodate built gearboxes, we'll build around the 7.18" length.
The bellhousing is cut off a blown 5-speed (everyone considering this swap probably has a blown 5-speed in their garage) and it will be milled down to the correct length and welded to an adapter plate which will be done in a few weeks. Using a chopped-up OEM bellhousing means I can retain the stock TOB, stock clutch fork, and stock hydraulics, so from the front, it will look like a Miata transmission with a 10-spline input shaft sticking through, and there are no issues with reliability or fitment on any of those critical items.
So that's the trans>engine attachment all sorted out. Next big puzzle is the shifter extension. The PPF bracket should be a little easier.
- It's a World-Class box
- It has a 3.35 1st gear which means that you can swap the input shaft from a 3.35 V8 box into it with ease.
- The 0.75 overdrive is a big step down from the .843 in the car now, but not as deep as the .63 ODs in all the V8 boxes
- It has an electronic speedo sender, and with a Dakota box and a little work, it should talk nicely to the NB speedometer and MS3
- It was $130 at the junkyard, not $800 like all the V8 boxes are
For people who want a 100% bolt-in solution, you'll have to shell out $1100 for a new T5z box, but converting the V6 box to V8 spec is easy. You need the input shaft, bearing, bearing cover plate, and a shim kit, all of which can be had for ~$140 or so, which means you can put the gearbox itself together for well under $300 without any special one-time deals or hard to find parts.
The clutch disc was $110 and it's a performance organic disc with a 10-spline T5 center. It will get swapped for a 26-spline piece when I do a G-Force gearset next year. All the G-Force boxes are set up around 7.18" input shafts (V8), not the ~7.8" shafts that came in the V6s, so in order to accomodate built gearboxes, we'll build around the 7.18" length.
The bellhousing is cut off a blown 5-speed (everyone considering this swap probably has a blown 5-speed in their garage) and it will be milled down to the correct length and welded to an adapter plate which will be done in a few weeks. Using a chopped-up OEM bellhousing means I can retain the stock TOB, stock clutch fork, and stock hydraulics, so from the front, it will look like a Miata transmission with a 10-spline input shaft sticking through, and there are no issues with reliability or fitment on any of those critical items.
So that's the trans>engine attachment all sorted out. Next big puzzle is the shifter extension. The PPF bracket should be a little easier.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
90-93 V8 box = correct length input shaft, bad overdrive. More $$$ because mustangs like em.
94-98 V6 box = Longer input shaft. But good overdrive. Uses 3.35 first gear so we can use a v8 input shaft. Mechanical speedo
99-04 V6 box = Longer input shaft. Good overdrive. 3.35 first gear, but with electronic speedo.
94-95 V8 box = Longer input shaft, bad overdrive, 3.35 first gear
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Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,106
From: Sunnyvale, CA
232 is a GM box. 238 is the 95-97 V6 Ford box.
Identification Key to Borg-Warner T5 transmission ID Tags
Ford World Class Transmisson identification
Identification Key to Borg-Warner T5 transmission ID Tags
Ford World Class Transmisson identification
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 18,643
Total Cats: 1,870
From: Beaverton, USA
Thats confusing lol. Because the mustang had a 3.8 and 3.9. And their engine codes were 6-232 and 6-238 lol.
According to this the electronic speedo started in 99. http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm
But it looks like any 3.8 v6 box should work. 94-04.
According to this the electronic speedo started in 99. http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm
But it looks like any 3.8 v6 box should work. 94-04.
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 18,643
Total Cats: 1,870
From: Beaverton, USA
Wow there is all sorts of conflicting information out there.
Going to edit this post instead of continuing to fill up your thread.
http://themustangsource.com/forums/f...4/#post4489118
But then according to this: http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF the 98-99 had a .73 overdrive. and the 99-01 doesnt have ratios listed.
I guess unless I can find some real info the 94-98 is the safe one to go with. And I guess the 96-98 had the electronic speedo?
I wish other platforms had a version of mt.net, with actual fact checking instead of just numbers.
Going to edit this post instead of continuing to fill up your thread.
http://themustangsource.com/forums/f...4/#post4489118
'94-98 V6 T5 ... 1st: 3.35:1, 2nd: 1.93:1, 3rd: 1.29:1, 4th: 1.00:1, 5th: 0.73:1
'99-04 V6 T5 ... 1st: 3.35:1, 2nd: 1.99:1, 3rd: 1.33:1, 4th: 1.00:1, 5th: 0.68:1
'99-04 V6 T5 ... 1st: 3.35:1, 2nd: 1.99:1, 3rd: 1.33:1, 4th: 1.00:1, 5th: 0.68:1
I guess unless I can find some real info the 94-98 is the safe one to go with. And I guess the 96-98 had the electronic speedo?
I wish other platforms had a version of mt.net, with actual fact checking instead of just numbers.
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