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Old 11-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
A lot more what?

I ask this seriously. Yes, I know that a new Camry has a heated, power-adjustable, leather-lined prostate massager available as a $2,350 option, but in terms of reliably transporting me from point A to point B, I can't see how it would perform this function any more efficiently than my 23 year old NA with 220,000 miles on it that I paid $800 for. It looks worse than a bag of candied ******** (and doesn't smell much better), but it's just about the most dependable thing I've ever owned.
Probably because some of us like showing up to work/the inlaws/job interviews not smelling like a bag of candied ********.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:19 AM   #82
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When it comes to vehicles, yes new ones are more expensive, but you get a LOT more for your money.
Yeah, you are right!!

More TPMS.

More DBW.

More Rear Cameras.

More Gas Guzzler Tax.

More Black Boxes.

Whatever happened to being able to just buy a car? The next government mandate is probably going to be "automatic collision detection and braking systems". **** that asshattery. For $30,000, I might get a thousand more extra unnecessary features for the extra $15,000, but I don't get any more "car" for that extra $15,000.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:55 AM   #83
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Yeah, you are right!!

More TPMS.

More DBW.

More Rear Cameras.

More Gas Guzzler Tax.

More Black Boxes.

Whatever happened to being able to just buy a car? The next government mandate is probably going to be "automatic collision detection and braking systems". **** that asshattery. For $30,000, I might get a thousand more extra unnecessary features for the extra $15,000, but I don't get any more "car" for that extra $15,000.

I like having a DD with leather with heated seats, nice stereo, lots of insulation to keep the wind noise out, being able to roll down other windows or lock doors without stopping the car, etc.

If you don't, keep driving old cars. No one is forcing you too.

I feel like I stumbled on the GRM forum where everything that isn't an '89 CRX HF is superfluous.
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Old 11-29-2013, 02:11 PM   #84
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I like having a DD with leather with heated seats, nice stereo, lots of insulation to keep the wind noise out, being able to roll down other windows or lock doors without stopping the car, etc.

If you don't, keep driving old cars. No one is forcing you too.

I feel like I stumbled on the GRM forum where everything that isn't an '89 CRX HF is superfluous.
The point I was trying to get at, reference Joe Perez's quote of $30,000 for a new Toyota Camry, (That's probably a fully loaded and optioned camry at 30k, but it's still a 30k car) while suggesting the point of view that the Camry's only extraordinary trait is it's uncanny ordinarity as a car, is that the price of a car has skyrocketed over just the past decade without the average car buyer really having the financial ability to support it. You may enjoy the heated seats in your DD, and I can tell you without a doubt that I enjoy the heated leather seats that I installed in my Miata DD, but for the overwhelming majority of Americans, myself included, there are far better things to spend that money on than the "extras" that add "a few dollars" to a monthly payment on a car whose value is relatively inconceivable in absolute dollar terms to the average buyer of the car. The Yaris, which is the bottom of the Toyota lineup as far as frills are concerned, still runs $14,400 for the base model, but it is just as capable as the Camry at ferrying it's owner to his workplace or family residence. Not that many years ago, there were far fewer "Nanny features" intended to "save the life of just one child..." Those safety "features" have driven the price up on all cars. As a case study, consider the Hyundai Accent. The Accent was designed to be the most inexpensive car on the market. It meets all of the government safety requirements and comes in at a meager $14,645 MSRP.

I added this sentence and these 4 line breaks to try and break up the "wall of text" feel; but, rest assured, this really is a wall of text in disguise.

In 2005, 9 years earlier, the Retail was under $10,000 for a base model; that's under $10k for a brand new, perfectly safe, transportation appliance. In all reality, that's only an annual nominal price increase of something like 6% per year, which equates to a real price increase more along the lines of 2-3% per year over that same period. For a car whose sole purpose is to be the lowest cost new car on the market, though, a 2-3% annual increase in the real price is absolutely ridiculous. On the contrary, I would expect to see a real price decrease if anything, as economies of scale, process improvements, and technology advances should drive the price down - this point of view is, of course, neglecting materials costs changes over time as well, which would have increased as the value of the dollar has fallen, but nonetheless, I still think it's a bit ridiculous. I'd also like to point out, though, the discrepancy of 2005 MSRP versus 2005 actual selling price. I distinctly recall advertised pricing for the Hyundai Accent at $5,995. Forget, for a second, that the dealerships and the manufacturer were probably sharing a small or negligible loss on the $5,995 sales price, and consider that today's MSRP is a nominal 15% year-after-year increase on the price of the minimalist car. That significant jump doesn't get explained simply by economic markets, you now have to consider that some small portion of that 15% was influenced by new and unnecessary nanny laws (TPMS mandated in 2005), while a larger portion of that was probably influenced by consumer demands. (I NEED a transportation appliance that not only gets me from A to B, but it MUST also be well equipped).

LOL! You're still reading!

The base model of the Hyundai Accent GLS features a massively overpowered 138-hp engine, 6-speaker AM/FM/iPOD/USB/KitchenSink/SiriusXM/CD/MP3 player, Air conditioning, Power Windows, Electronic Stability Control, Traction Control, 4-wheel ABS, power door locks... In 2005, it was 104hp, manual crank windows, A/C was a $795 option, and if you wanted ABS, it was nearly $1,700. At $5,995, the 2005 Hyundai Accent was just as good of a transportation appliance as a fully loaded and optioned $30,000 2014 Toyota Camry, and it even had Hyundai's 10-year 100k mile warranty. To the average person who couldn't afford the $6,000 Hyundai, today's awesomesauce Camry with style, convenience, comfort, and safety features oozing from every conceivable orface cost a mere $400 more. $400 more this month, and then $400 more next month, and then $400 the month after that... - hell, that makes that $120/month cell phone bill seem like pocket change!!!

/walloftext

I also remember a dealership in my area offering a "Brand New Hyundai Accent for only $1 with the purchase of any other car!!!" I guess they were REALLY trying to get rid of the things...
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Old 11-29-2013, 02:21 PM   #85
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TL;DR

Ultimately, who cares? People are going to keep doing stupid things, and if cars weren't getting expensive they'd spend their money on other overpriced crap because its what they do.

I've never made payments on any car in my life. Heck, even my house is completely paid off after about 5 years of ownership. I'm sure Joe and others are like that, and they will continue to be, while the rest of 'Muricuhh continues to get into moar debt and buy things they really can't afford.
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Old 11-29-2013, 03:41 PM   #86
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Negative rep for the damn novella. Just kidding I just didn't read it.

Ultimately I couldn't give less of a **** and whatever someone wants to do with their money is their business.

I put nearly 1/3 of my income into savings/401k and I could leave the cozy bar I'm sitting at and be run over by a car, I guess all that money in addition to life insurance policy will help the wife to enjoy the rest of her life.......

Essentially, I think there needs to be a healthy balance between living off credit and being a prepper. But I realize that restricts ones ability to look down on others for their choices.
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Old 11-29-2013, 05:06 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
The point I was trying to get at, reference Joe Perez's quote of $30,000 for a new Toyota Camry, (That's probably a fully loaded and optioned camry at 30k, but it's still a 30k car)
You'd think that, wouldn't you?

Actually, $31,275 is the base MSRP for a 2014 Camry XLE 4 door with no options. You do get a few "upscale" standard features for that (V6, heated seats, etc) but that's otherwise free of any add-ons such as SatNav ($1,620), Illuminated Door Sill Enhancements ($299), Blind Spot Monitor ($500), VIP Security System ($360), Remote Engine Start ($499), floor mats ($343), Paint Protection Film ($395), Body Side Molding ($209), Safety Connect (Toyota OnStar) ($515), Rear Lip Spoiler ($159), etc.

(And when was the last time you saw a base-model anything sitting on a dealer lot?)


If heated seats (and a few minor cosmetic items) are not important to you, then you can get the SE model for "only" $28,070.

Which is still ******* insane.


For that matter, why does a ******* SatNav system cost $1,620? My Garmin Nuvi was about $120, and it has the advantage of being portable and easily updated with new maps via the USB port. I will never understand why people pay money to have inferior products locked into their dashboard.





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Ultimately, who cares? People are going to keep doing stupid things, and if cars weren't getting expensive they'd spend their money on other overpriced crap because its what they do.
Sadly, I believe that you are probably correct.

I am annoyed principally because I would actually like to be able to purchase a "basic" car, and yet I am unable to because I represent a minority which the automakers elect not to serve.




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Negative rep for the damn novella. Just kidding I just didn't read it.
Negative props awarded for not merely responding to a post without reading it, but for actually admitting this as though it were a badge of pride.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:41 PM   #88
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Negative props awarded for not merely responding to a post without reading it, but for actually admitting this as though it were a badge of pride.
Why did I need to read more of his ranting about cheap vehicles that he has done in multiple threads?

If you don't want a new vehicle, don't buy one.

I promise, no one cares.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:47 PM   #89
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As an 18 year old beginning to join the adult world, this is enlightening.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:50 AM   #90
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Just chiming in to say that credit/payments are not the devil if you can manage your money correctly.
Yeah, I have a car payment. I also have a credit card with a balance that never goes above $500. And my credit score is better than both of my parents. And enough savings to pay off the car if I felt the need to.

inb4 "youre a slave of american consumerism"

That is all.
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Old 11-30-2013, 08:35 AM   #91
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Just chiming in to say that credit/payments are not the devil if you can manage your money correctly.
No, they're not the devil.

And gonorrhea isn't nearly as bad as AIDS. But neither one is as nice as cake.
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Old 11-30-2013, 10:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
A lot more what?

I ask this seriously. Yes, I know that a new Camry has a heated, power-adjustable, leather-lined prostate massager available as a $2,350 option, but in terms of reliably transporting me from point A to point B, I can't see how it would perform this function any more efficiently than my 23 year old NA with 220,000 miles on it that I paid $800 for. It looks worse than a bag of candied ******** (and doesn't smell much better), but it's just about the most dependable thing I've ever owned.
Ahhhh, Joe. Joe, Joe, Joe... Let me help you understand how manufacturers somehow find buyers for all those Camrys.

Because Vagina.

I'm a practical guy (perhaps not to the extent that you are, admittedly) and I can appreciate the merits of a Beater Car as much as anybody else. I like quirky old cars, their "personality" if you will.

But I like Vagina a lot more. I mean, a LOT.

Vaginas are really fun, and take my word for it, much more effective at keeping you warm and happy than any Cobbled Together Kitchen Faucet Heating System could ever be. Plus, a pretty good percentage are attached to really nice people; heck, some of my best friends have had, and made available to me regularly, a Vagina.

Now given that the bulk of these Vaginas are going to be found on Girls, if one wants to live with Vagina, one must also learn to live with girls, which can be challenging because most of them are *not* also men, and therefore somewhat inscrutable. The vast majority of these Vagina-laden creatures lack not only the mechanical understanding of cars, but also the smug sense of accomplishment us Beater Drivers get from squeezing more miles out of something that's paid for. Indeed, to them it's just a junky, undependable car.

(Sure, there are exceptions to this rule; there *are* some fine women out there who are "car guys", our Resident Too Good To Be True Token Hot Girl Car Guy "Rosca-whatever" is a perfect example (Hollaback girl... I'm rich and nice.) but again, thats a total fluke...)

Anyway, it comes down to a very simple equation: Happy Wife = Happy Life. Mama wants a Camry with seat heaters to keep that fine booty warm? No problem. Mama wants sixty gazillion airbags to keep her and our offspring safe from idiots? I'm down. Mama wants the optional GPS navigation because she's not so good at directions? Sign me the **** up.

(True story: At the same time that I was happily daily-ing a 68 Chevy "Scooby" Van, my (then) wife was rolling in a brand new C320. It made her feel special, and I would hope "loved", and it made me happy to give it to her.)
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:37 AM   #93
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And gonorrhea isn't nearly as bad as AIDS. But neither one is as nice as cake.
touche
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:58 PM   #94
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Ahhhh, Joe. Joe, Joe, Joe... Let me help you understand how manufacturers somehow find buyers for all those Camrys.

Because Vagina.

I'm a practical guy (perhaps not to the extent that you are, admittedly) and I can appreciate the merits of a Beater Car as much as anybody else. I like quirky old cars, their "personality" if you will.

But I like Vagina a lot more. I mean, a LOT.

Vaginas are really fun, and take my word for it, much more effective at keeping you warm and happy than any Cobbled Together Kitchen Faucet Heating System could ever be. Plus, a pretty good percentage are attached to really nice people; heck, some of my best friends have had, and made available to me regularly, a Vagina.

Now given that the bulk of these Vaginas are going to be found on Girls, if one wants to live with Vagina, one must also learn to live with girls, which can be challenging because most of them are *not* also men, and therefore somewhat inscrutable. The vast majority of these Vagina-laden creatures lack not only the mechanical understanding of cars, but also the smug sense of accomplishment us Beater Drivers get from squeezing more miles out of something that's paid for. Indeed, to them it's just a junky, undependable car.

(Sure, there are exceptions to this rule; there *are* some fine women out there who are "car guys", our Resident Too Good To Be True Token Hot Girl Car Guy "Rosca-whatever" is a perfect example (Hollaback girl... I'm rich and nice.) but again, thats a total fluke...)

Anyway, it comes down to a very simple equation: Happy Wife = Happy Life. Mama wants a Camry with seat heaters to keep that fine booty warm? No problem. Mama wants sixty gazillion airbags to keep her and our offspring safe from idiots? I'm down. Mama wants the optional GPS navigation because she's not so good at directions? Sign me the **** up.

(True story: At the same time that I was happily daily-ing a 68 Chevy "Scooby" Van, my (then) wife was rolling in a brand new C320. It made her feel special, and I would hope "loved", and it made me happy to give it to her.)


Props
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:04 PM   #95
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Sure, there are exceptions to this rule; there *are* some fine women out there who are "car guys"
My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and is building a '56 F100... Lucky? I think so.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:16 PM   #96
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My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and is building a '56 F100... Lucky? I think so.
Pics of girlfriend working on '56 F100
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:18 PM   #97
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My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and is building a '56 F100... Lucky? I think so.
Nope.

Because she knows what your fancy parts actually cost.

I'm glad my wife doesn't know what XIDAs cost.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:24 PM   #98
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Nope. Because she knows what your fancy parts actually cost. I'm glad my wife doesn't know what XIDAs cost.
She only knows vintage cars...I hope.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:26 PM   #99
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Pics of girlfriend working on '56 F100
Most of the "working" at the moment is waiting for money for parts. I'll post some stuff about her f100 with my Marley with her and mine cats together on a photo shoot.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:27 PM   #100
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(The Vagina Monologue.)
First of all, props. I certainly respect a good rant.

But you haven't solved the riddle, all you've done is assign a name to it.

Let's just stipulate that I completely agree with everything you wrote vis-a-vis "The Woman" and her influence on the car-buying process. This does not in any way explain the underlying motivations behind this behavior.

In other words, even if we accept that women are, by nature, somehow uniquely inclined towards irrational decision-making when it comes to shopping for an automobile (and I am by NO means satisfied that this is, in fact, true), nothing about this extremely well-written and entertaining block of prose adequately explains to me *why* the sort of rational decision-making processes which are at play in the purchase of everyday commodities such as socks, canned tuna fish and flatscreen TVs go completely out the window when car-buying is involved.
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