deezums

iTrader: (3)

When the spring goes slack in droop it falls against the sleeve due to the angle of the shock while it's mounted. When you set the car back down it does that. Never was a problem for me.

JD8

iTrader: (2)

Alright good deal, thank you. The track was Shenandoah at Summit Point Motorsports Park. It has a banked turn with an aggressive entry (even in the rain I get airborn on entry). So that probably explains it. I thought I had the coilovers tight enough to eliminate the spring coming loose at full droop, but I think that must not be the case.

The banked turn entry...

atotalpro

Has anyone found a good source for cheap helper springs?

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

$25-40 at Summit for Eibach and Hyperco

atotalpro

Thats a piece though right? Seems like there should be a cheaper ebay alternative, considering there is almost no tech to them and they have nothing to do with performance.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

actually there is some "tech" to them. Flat wire stock costs more than round wire stock for starters. They have a direct and easily observed impact on performance particularly in the rear suspension of most cars. People can and do set up suspensions without them but that doesn't mean that it works. It just means they're willing to compromise to save a few bucks.

We spend a mountain of time engineering spring combinations with round and flat wire, coupler designs, lengths, rates. It isn't just a change in rate that we are looking for throughout the stroke, it's specific rates at specific spots in the stroke that affect how the suspension works.

If you are on a tight budget, you can leave them out. If you want to maximize you set up, do some research and put high rate helpers in. This as opposed to zero rate tenders, since they don't affect spring rate.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

Hyperco CS100. Not worth putting further thought into it in the context of a budget bilstein set.

Reality of tender/helper springs in a bilstein setup with you know... sway bars... is that you won't be getting enough travel to worry about unseating the spring. (0 rate use), and the amount of stroke you get out of a helper spring unless you start doing some high level stuff that begs the question of "why do this with $400 shocks" isn't going to be noticeable between helper and main spring.

I'd argue that the main use of helpers in the scenario of some higher dollar Miata coilovers is first and foremost to act as a spring spacer, but that's for a different thread.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Nope.

Gigs of engineering data and hundreds of hours of road testing conclusively prove otherwise. It's okay to argue but bring facts, not just feelings.

The only reason to leave out high rate helpers is because they're not in the budget or you have too little stroke. The argument that sway bars keep the rear suspension from drooping is based on conjecture, not facts.

atotalpro

Im currently trying to pick spring rates. So you say that the FM springs at 318 / 233 are good rates for Bilsteins with stock valving? I was able to find Summit Racing springs at 300 / 250, would that be a good match? BTW, thanks for the info on the helper springs.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Need more stagger in rate bias, a bit more front. Divide rear by front rate. .60~.65 good for medium grip tires and stock or 24-25mm front sway. Lower ratio as grip and overall rate increases.

None are "perfect" because the B4 valving isn't perfect. So don't overthink the whole matching rates to damper thing. Focus on getting the right rates, ride height, rake and sway bars for the tires you are using.

HarryB

+1 on Emilio. Had my mind in 350/250 for my use before heading to a different direction.

Ven3li

I tossed up whether to go 350/250 or FM springs for ages. In the end I went FM because I'm lazy and there was less to think about. Springs sit nicely in the top hats without isolators and remain captive on full extension without helpers.

At the ride height they come with the bottoming isn't an issue with 25mm extended top hats. With the 350/250 setup you'd have the option to go lower, but you'd probably be on the bump stops a lot if you did, so you might not want to.

The whole idea behind going with this setup was the knowledge that I would be running around 340 tread wear tyres. My car is a daily and I live in rural Australia where the roads can be terrible. I like the way it rides and handles, but if you're planning to run stickier tyres it might not be for you.

johnwall3

Tried to search through this thread for some insight on a question I had but maybe my google-fu searching skills aren't as sharp; I'm currently in the middle of making some DIY Billies using the following:

-MSM Bilsteins w/ NB tophats
-Summit 7" 450/300 springs
-Integra speedthane bump stops
-ES isolators
-RideTech delrin washers
-Advanced-Autosports coilover sleeve kit

My question is, would running extended tophats with this set up on an '02 NB with stock 16" Enkeis be necessary, granted that I will be cutting the bumpstops to 30-36mm? Would cutting more off the bumpstop in order to not be riding on them be a no-no? And if tophats are necessary, would I be able to get away with just using them for the rear, or do I need them on all corners? Sorry for so many questions but I appreciate the time the DIY Billie gurus can spare for a noob like me. Thanks!

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Since you plan to use stock 16in wheels I will assume this is for street use and won't see R compound rubber. You should be fine without the extended tophats IF the ride height isn't lowered too much. The rear will need them before the front, if at all.

johnwall3

sorry, could’ve sworn I put in that info. Yes, car is a daily and would be mostly street, maybe some autox every now and then. Also trying for a 12.5” front and 12.75” rear. I think based off this thread that would mean I would at least need the rear extended top hats right?

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

With those spring rates you will want extended tophats for anything less than 5.5 inch pinch weld height in the rear, from my own experience. My fenders are rolled and pulled so I didn't ever measure fender lip height when I was on Bilsteins.

johnwall3

got it, thanks. Looks like extended tophats it is, appreciate the help!

Gergo Bakk

I don't mean to beat a dead horse by posting in this thread but theres one thing I'm unsure of even after hours of reading and research.​​​​​​Someone is offering me a free set of 99 10AE billies. Is the max spring rate without revalving in the 350/250 or so range?
I'd like to maybe run 450/350 or so but from what I read, i would need custom revalve for this, correct?

I wouldn't mind getting a revalve job as the billies are free (although used, with 34k miles) but i can't seem to find who still does bilstein revalving these days.

I've search threads and many say bilstein doesn't do it anymore, fcm doesn't do it either. The only one I could find was Delta Vee and they seem to run about 250$ per shock at least, which really isn't in the budget range anymore.

Anyone know an affordable place to get the billies revalved? I'd love to know.

Also, the 5X racing billies diy kits they sell, are those custom valves? A lot of the kit run higher spring rates than i mentioned above

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Depends on the weight of the car with driver. The lighter the car the more spring rate you can run on Bilsteins. So maybe 300/200 for a 2700# car, 550/350 for a 2300#. That's my opinion based on running these setups on a few cars over the years.

Gergo Bakk

Thank you for this information. I guess with a roll bar and driver I'd be on the upper end of that scale with my 2002 LS.

Do you happen to know anyone i can reach out to for revalving?