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Old 09-02-2011, 03:39 AM   #1
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Default Brake Fade Question

I have a 1992 miata weighing in at about 2350 pounds including me at 1/4 of a tank.


-Stock 1.6 brake calipers
-Slotted Stop Tech Rotors in front
-generic pads (nothing fancy)
-completely stock rear brakes
-Dunlop Z1s 205-50-15
-15x8 6uls

The car brakes very hard when doing a emergency stop (65-0) with cold rotors and pads. However, after some braking on the freeway or on back roads during spirited driving sessions i notice an almost soft brake pedal feel and decreased response and aggression in my brakes. The other day i was coming back from school at 11pm at night and it was about 68 degrees out. The canyon i took was about 3-4 miles long and half of it was uphill so not much braking going on there. On the down hill section however, after about 2 minutes of a few hard turns and braking i felt my brakes giving out. I had to press pretty damn hard on the brake to stop at the stop sign at the bottom.

Is this normal for 1.6 brakes? if so, would 1.8 brakes be a big difference? What about Willwood Dynalites?

Thanks alot guys!
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:33 AM   #2
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It's the generic no brand pads.

Get a set of carbotechs or something reputable along those lines and you'll be peeling your face off the windscreen everytime you brake.

Willwoods are WAY overkill considering you've not even progressed to quality pads.

EDIT: Oh and the slotted brake disks are junk and a waste of time, replace them with standard flat discs and enjoy improved and smoother braking.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:00 AM   #3
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You're a dumbass. GTFO.

Slotted rotors on stock brakes makes you a F&F ricer. Learn to drive without relying on the brakes so much.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:28 PM   #4
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Brake fluid that is more than 12 months old on a street car is far more likely to fade. Real racers change brake fluid every race or two depending on how serious they are. It makes that big a difference. Start there.

Brake fluid absorbs water from the air constantly. It also absorbs it through the flexible brake lines over time. When there is any moisture contained in the brake fluid it will cause the fluid to boil at a much lower temperature and will cause exactly what you are describing. Only buy brake fluid in small bottles and keep bottles secured except when pouring. Never use fluid that has been left open.

If after your fluid change you still need more resistance to fading, a good streetable pad with increased fade resistance like the Hawk HP+ (not HPS) will likely be all you could need on the street. But you'd be crazy to change pads without flushing the system with fresh DOT4 rated fluid first.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:58 PM   #5
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Don't put any money into 1.8 brakes if you can afford Wilwoods. But if you're not racing, I wouldn't suggest it, not worth it for your typical canyon carving.

Like the others have said, invest in new pads and blank rotors, no need for slotted rotors. If you're not going to go with Wilwoods as I suggested, buy the 1.8 setup, don't waste money on 1.6 pads and rotors if you're only going to upgrade later.

Planetmiata used to have a good deal, $99 for rotors and Hawk HPS pads. So $198 plus I think $50 for brackets, and I'd suggest SS lines for $100. So $350 for a major upgrade, well worth it.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
It's the generic no brand pads.

Get a set of carbotechs or something reputable along those lines and you'll be peeling your face off the windscreen everytime you brake.

Willwoods are WAY overkill considering you've not even progressed to quality pads.

EDIT: Oh and the slotted brake disks are junk and a waste of time, replace them with standard flat discs and enjoy improved and smoother braking.
The willwoods caught my interest when someone posted a set of front Dynalites for 400 bucks a few days ago. Seemed like an amazing deal to me. Thanks for the pad suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
You're a dumbass. GTFO.

Slotted rotors on stock brakes makes you a F&F ricer. Learn to drive without relying on the brakes so much.
Sorry, my stock rotors were warped and i got the front disks brand new for 75 dollars....it made sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Brake fluid that is more than 12 months old on a street car is far more likely to fade. Real racers change brake fluid every race or two depending on how serious they are. It makes that big a difference. Start there.

Brake fluid absorbs water from the air constantly. It also absorbs it through the flexible brake lines over time. When there is any moisture contained in the brake fluid it will cause the fluid to boil at a much lower temperature and will cause exactly what you are describing. Only buy brake fluid in small bottles and keep bottles secured except when pouring. Never use fluid that has been left open.

If after your fluid change you still need more resistance to fading, a good streetable pad with increased fade resistance like the Hawk HP+ (not HPS) will likely be all you could need on the street. But you'd be crazy to change pads without flushing the system with fresh DOT4 rated fluid first.
I had no idea that this was the case. I have never done a brake fluid change on my miata and i bought it about a year ago. Ill definetly get on that ASAP.

Thanks a lot, appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by curly View Post
Don't put any money into 1.8 brakes if you can afford Wilwoods. But if you're not racing, I wouldn't suggest it, not worth it for your typical canyon carving.

Like the others have said, invest in new pads and blank rotors, no need for slotted rotors. If you're not going to go with Wilwoods as I suggested, buy the 1.8 setup, don't waste money on 1.6 pads and rotors if you're only going to upgrade later.

Planetmiata used to have a good deal, $99 for rotors and Hawk HPS pads. So $198 plus I think $50 for brackets, and I'd suggest SS lines for $100. So $350 for a major upgrade, well worth it.
Yes, the willwoods only recently caught my attention because of a member that was selling them for 400 dollars including all SS lines. I should have jumped on it. He also said that its a good combo with 1.8 rear brakes. what do yo think?

Thanks everyone for you input, good or bad.
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:13 PM   #7
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Note that just replacing the fronts will give you a horrendous brake balance, you'll want a bias valve and at least 1.8 hardware on the rear
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:24 PM   #8
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Ill probably just change the pads all around and change the brake fluid to begin with. If i still feel brake fade or weak braking in general i might upgrade to 1.8 or maybe even willwoods in the future. This car is my DD but i want to slowly turn it into a track car.

thanks again.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:48 PM   #9
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If you change pads, change rotors too or get them resurfaced (can you do that on slotted rotors?). If you do not do this you can get some crazy noise issues due to 2 different pad materials working together. +1 on the brake fluid and just use some fresh DOT4 fluid, no need for the real expensive stuff on the street. Hell, I even track my miata with DOT4 that just gets change dout fresh before every track day.
If you are doing new pads and rotors, the cost of getting 1.8 parts and the brackets is very little extra. The 1.8 brackets are alot cheaper now, check out panicmotorsports.com or any of the other used parts guys, I have seen the brackets go for ~$50 which is well worth it.
There is no need for the monster brakes on a non FI miata, the spec guys run factory brakes all day long.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR.M!474 View Post
Sorry, my stock rotors were warped and i got the front disks brand new for 75 dollars....it made sense to me.
From rockauto:
Code:
CENTRIC Part # 12145035  C-Tek Standard Rotor  Rear  $11.87
CENTRIC Part # 12145034  C-Tek Standard Rotor  Front $13.60
same rotors as Emilio sells in this kit - http://949racing.com/Stage-1-Miata-brakes-90-05.aspx

for $75 you could have gotten regular rotors AND axxis ult front pads (they used to be $40 at www.importrp.com but they raised the price and AFAIK are out of stock for next 2 months.

Edit: they even have $7.75 front rotors if you're THAT cheap.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:34 PM   #11
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you can get F/R ULTs for REALLLY cheap if you search the webz. Great street pads.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you can get F/R ULTs for REALLLY cheap if you search the webz. Great street pads.
I tried to buy them last week and got this in response:

Quote:
Hi Leonid,

Thank you for your order for the PBR/Axxis Ultimate (ULT) FRONT Brake Pad Set. Unfortunately this set of brake pads is out of stock right now. We are not expecting to get any more in for another 1-2 months either unfortunately. Would you be interested in a different brake pad set instead? We should have some of the other PBR/Axxis compounds in-stock, like the Metal Master (XBG) and Deluxe Advanced. We also carry popular brands like EBC and Hawk as well.

We can also leave it on order for you if you think you can wait. I don't think anyone in the U.S. will have these in-stock either as we've already exhausted our backup sources in trying to locate them as well. If you need to just cancel the order we can do that too. Please advise.

Thanks,
Mike

--
Import Replacement Parts, LLC.
http://www.importrp.com
E-mail: [email protected]
And after telling them to change the order to Hawk HP+:
Quote:
Yeah, those pads are really popular. The manufacturer must be lagging in production or something. Sorry about that :(. I'll go ahead and bill your same card for the difference and switch you to those Hawk pads.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:50 PM   #13
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For the "brake fade" you describe, as several people mentioned there are multiple things that could be happening. The suggestions of better pads and fluid flush is good, and while standard discs are plenty sufficient, Stoptech usually makes very quality stuff. A resurfacing of your rotor would be recommended for sure (if you can find someone to do that), as they're most likely still good. Or you could try selling them and picking up normal rotors.

To nail down your immediate issue, there are different symptoms with different brake problems. If the brake pedal is sinking to the floor and you're not stopping, that is most likely old fluid (assuming the pedal is hard all other times in normal driving). If the pedal stays firm but you just aren't slowing down as much, that would be pad fade and would indicate you should get more aggressive pads.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Brake fluid that is more than 12 months old on a street car is far more likely to fade. Real racers change brake fluid every race or two depending on how serious they are. It makes that big a difference. Start there.

Brake fluid absorbs water from the air constantly. It also absorbs it through the flexible brake lines over time. When there is any moisture contained in the brake fluid it will cause the fluid to boil at a much lower temperature and will cause exactly what you are describing. Only buy brake fluid in small bottles and keep bottles secured except when pouring. Never use fluid that has been left open.

If after your fluid change you still need more resistance to fading, a good streetable pad with increased fade resistance like the Hawk HP+ (not HPS) will likely be all you could need on the street. But you'd be crazy to change pads without flushing the system with fresh DOT4 rated fluid first.
I'm glad I read this post. I've changed pads, rotors, and added braided lines and still have horrible brake fade. Everyone said "upgrade the brakes" which seemed crazy to me on a daily driver that occasionally sees a test and tune autocross or drag race.

Now that I think about it, I've definitely been neglecting the brake fluid (just bleeding out enough to clear the lines and using an open bottle). Hopefully a full flush will get my car to stop again.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by soviet View Post
I tried to buy them last week and got this in response:



And after telling them to change the order to Hawk HP+:

youll hate HP+ on the street. I went from HP+ TO ULT
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:34 PM   #16
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I ♥ my HP+ on the street. Just like any other performance pad you need to follow the initial bedding in instructions to the letter. Do not apply brakes at all during cool down just like it says. Wait for brakes to reach room temperature before driving again just like it says. Then they will not ever squeak when stopping.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #17
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Did this on a few sets of them. always eventually squeaked (saying it nicely) and dusted.

ULTs bite just as hard, dust less, and make no noise. just not as fade resistant of course.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:04 PM   #18
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Soft pedal = boiled fluid (boiled fluid releases air into the lines which is compressible, and you have to move more fluid into the lines to maintain that pressure, which requires more pedal motion with the same master cylinder, thus the pedal becomes soft and sinks)

Firm pedal = overheated pads (pad is overheated past the MOT, which causes a reduction in friction coefficient, requiring additional force to maintain the same overall friction force and slow the car at the same rate)

Figure out which one you have, and then you can change the part that's causing it. On the BBKs we always get fluid fade first - with stock calipers it's always pad fade. (either caused by **** pads, or by pad deflection creating hot-spots on the pad, which overheats those parts of the pad, requiring more force etc.)
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:05 PM   #19
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We'll see. ULTs are pretty awesome and HP+ are pretty awesome, according to my friend.
So I guess they are comparable. Except ULTs are so much cheaper... but out of stock and I need pads NOW :(
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:09 PM   #20
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they aren't comparable.

I'm pretty sure I have HP+s in a box if you ned new front pads now. they have 1/2 life remaining...come grab them.
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