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Old 09-06-2011, 05:52 PM   #21
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Did this on a few sets of them. always eventually squeaked (saying it nicely) and dusted.

ULTs bite just as hard, dust less, and make no noise. just not as fade resistant of course.
Agree with the squeaking - no way around it on a car that will see mostly street (the XP10/XP8 that I have now are the same noise).

Disagree with the Ultimates biting as hard though - especially when they are both up to temp, HP+ are way better in this regard. Dust, I found a little less and a different colour with Ultimates. The biggest advantage for the street is of course the lack of noise. However, I did find that the Ultimates rattle quite a bit in the front calipers. I used to love Ultimates until corner 8 at Mosport.

The EBC Red Stuff are almost identical in performance to Ultimates but they are about twice the price.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:41 PM   #22
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Wow, great to see so many replies on this thread! Thanks a lot, guys! You even helped someone else in the process.

After reading the difference between brake fade and fluid boiling i know that i am definetly having Fluid related issues. The pedal gets very soft after a few stop n' go sections on the freeway which according to you guys means some seriously H2O infested brake fluid. Ill defiently change that out ASAP. (this will be my first time bleeding brakes and changing fluid.... )

You guys also said something about getting my discs resurfaced...why would i need to do this if i bought them Brand New? I did change the pads when i changed the rotors... My brother actually runs Hawk pads on his 350z and his actually never squeak.

If after the fluid change i start to experience overheating pad issues i will probably buy new pads and on top of that upgrade to 1.8s or maybe willwoods as i am going FI soon (Im so confused by MS tuning..omg!) and once that happens i will start to Track the car.

Thanks again, everyone!!
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:22 AM   #23
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You guys also said something about getting my discs resurfaced...why would i need to do this if i bought them Brand New? I did change the pads when i changed the rotors... My brother actually runs Hawk pads on his 350z and his actually never squeak.
[sarcasm] oh you're right, mine don't squeak, what was I thinking [/sarcasm]


In all honesty, I'm in no way doubting your brother's word. I'm sure they don't squeak on a 350z if he says so, but they sure as **** do on our Miatas. HP+ is a great pad, I use it on the track for my non r-compound, non competative track ****. I would NOT use them for a DD miata. Your brother's statement is making me rethink my decision to not running them on my DD Lancer though. Sure they're not HPS on the Datsun?
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:24 AM   #24
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[sarcasm] oh you're right, mine don't squeak, what was I thinking [/sarcasm]


In all honesty, I'm in no way doubting your brother's word. I'm sure they don't squeak on a 350z if he says so, but they sure as **** do on our Miatas. HP+ is a great pad, I use it on the track for my non r-compound, non competative track ****. I would NOT use them for a DD miata. Your brother's statement is making me rethink my decision to not running them on my DD Lancer though. Sure they're not HPS on the Datsun?
...i asked him.....they are HPS....
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:24 AM   #25
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I ♥ my HP+ on the street. Just like any other performance pad you need to follow the initial bedding in instructions to the letter. Do not apply brakes at all during cool down just like it says. Wait for brakes to reach room temperature before driving again just like it says. Then they will not ever squeak when stopping.
This. I've run several sets of HP+ and never had a squeling issue....dust- yes, noise- no.

OP- I'm just giving you a hard time for the fact that you admit to using **** pads and wondering why you are getting fade even with other upgrades. IMHO, I'd still get solid rotors to go with the HP+ pads, some SS lines and flush the entire system with SuperBlue or something similar. On a 1.6L rotor, those slots are taking away from your already small surface area. ALso remember that your tire choice has a lot to do with your brakes.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:30 PM   #26
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This. I've run several sets of HP+ and never had a squeling issue....dust- yes, noise- no.

OP- I'm just giving you a hard time for the fact that you admit to using **** pads and wondering why you are getting fade even with other upgrades. IMHO, I'd still get solid rotors to go with the HP+ pads, some SS lines and flush the entire system with SuperBlue or something similar. On a 1.6L rotor, those slots are taking away from your already small surface area. ALso remember that your tire choice has a lot to do with your brakes.
Yea, i figured. It was deserved but it wasn't so much wondering about why i got brake fade, more like why so quickly? I've had the car for a year and i replaced the rotors and pads about 3 months ago and didn't have these issues this fast ever. I get it now, combo of bad pads and bad fluid = bad braking. I never really thought about the rotor size and what the slots would do for me or wouldn't. Thanks a lot! I need this kind of info with a good or bad tone hahah
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:34 PM   #27
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Hopefully with the fresh pads and fluid you'll increase the fade threshhold, but with those Z1SS tires, you'll still be able to work the brakes pretty hard if you try. Don't completely neglect the rears either- some good, fresh pads back there will help too....you don't want to leave all the braking up to the fronts.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:51 PM   #28
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Resurfacing the rotors has to do with the interaction between the pads and the rotor surface. When you bed a pad and just plain use a pad, there is a transfer of pad material to the surface of the rotor. That stays there, and the "friction" of braking is actually done by the pad material on the rotor being grabbed by the pad itself.

When you put a different type of pad on (there are lots of different materials pads are made of), you often get a sort of incompatibility. The new pad doesn't want to grab the stuff that's on the rotors, or it won't lay down its own new layer, or it'll stink, etc. Resurfacing removes the old pad layer and allows you to re-bed the new stuff.

Tires only matter for braking if you're locking them up. If you're not, stickier tires won't help you at all. They also will do nothing for fade.

Edit: I don't really agree with the slotted rotor-surface area argument either. The compound will make a much bigger difference than that small difference in area. On a theoretical level, sure, it'll matter. In practical application I can't imagine you'd be able to detect a difference even in data.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:52 PM   #29
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uhhhh....it's all about traction.

stickier tires will stop faster before lockup. but it's not the problem in this case.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by stinkycheezmonky View Post
Tires only matter for braking if you're locking them up. If you're not, stickier tires won't help you at all. They also will do nothing for fade.
lol
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:07 AM   #31
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If the tire isn't sliding, feel free to explain how it will "stop better".

Edit: To put that another way, if the brakes can't overcome the coefficient of friction for the tires, what makes you think that increasing that coefficient will do anything?
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:44 AM   #32
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are you suggesting you think that a sliding tire stops faster?

it also sounds like m.net indoctrinated you with the whole "if you can lock um, you can stop um" line of thinking.


Oh man, I was just over at trierack looking at their extreme summer tire performance tests (I'm thinking about getting new tires). And I saw they tested braking distances...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=118

I emailed them and told them that tires play no factor in braking, quoted you, and told them the tests were pointless.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:51 AM   #33
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No, exactly the opposite. Up to the just before the point of sliding, neither tire will stop faster or slower than the other. The benefit of the stickier tire is that it won't lock up as quickly/easily. Once you're sliding the game is over.

If your brakes are so weak that you CAN'T GET TO THE POINT of locking up the tires (IOW, the tires are never sliding), why would a better tire make braking more effective?

Last edited by stinkycheezmonky; 09-08-2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: I can spell!
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:56 AM   #34
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I think the original point was that a grippier tyre causes more brake fade as you can brake that much harder, which in turn means a ton more heat into the pads.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:02 AM   #35
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Hmm. That's not what I took away from Doppel's comment, but I can see where you're coming from. Only other problem there is that time spent on the brakes is what generates heat, not how hard you put the pedal down.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:05 AM   #36
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I'll agree with that.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:07 AM   #37
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I like your post edit prior to my response

Take THAT, Tirerack! :-P

Edit: What does the "Braking Modulation" value represent there? Is that a subjective rating?
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Soft pedal = boiled fluid (boiled fluid releases air into the lines which is compressible, and you have to move more fluid into the lines to maintain that pressure, which requires more pedal motion with the same master cylinder, thus the pedal becomes soft and sinks)

Firm pedal = overheated pads (pad is overheated past the MOT, which causes a reduction in friction coefficient, requiring additional force to maintain the same overall friction force and slow the car at the same rate)
When I overhated DTC-30's and XP12's I had a soft pedal and sub 500* caliper temps...and a soft pedal.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by stinkycheezmonky View Post
Hmm. That's not what I took away from Doppel's comment, but I can see where you're coming from. Only other problem there is that time spent on the brakes is what generates heat, not how hard you put the pedal down.
pedal pressure must have a direct relationship on the amount of heat generated, you're braking harder, ergo you're creating more friction and therefore more heat.

Sure you might be on the brakes a bit less time, but they're still going to get mighty mighty hot.

Conversely I could lightly brake down a minor hill for miles without getting the brakes that hot.

F1 cars don't brake for that long, but they get to stratospheric temps (not the same as an MX5 granted, but you see the point.

I'm obviously taking the examples to extremes, but you can't rule out one or the other as effecting the heat generation, they all play their part.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:34 AM   #40
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When I overhated DTC-30's and XP12's I had a soft pedal and sub 500* caliper temps...and a soft pedal.
How did you measure caliper temp? Also, looks like DTC-30s are for designed for gravel rally and dirt circle track use? Can't find specific data about them on Hawk's website. I am, however, seeing an operating temp range of 250-2000*F for the XP12s. So if you overheated the pads, you had to have been higher than 500*. Most racing fluid tops out at ~600*F, so you could've boiled it at that point too.

Or you were braking like a ninny and overheated the pads that way. But based on your experience and such, I would not expect that

Last edited by stinkycheezmonky; 09-08-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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