Bushings!
11-11-2009, 10:45 PM
#41
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They probably would slip out (because the poly bushings don't have much of a press fit, I pressed them in by hand) but they would stop a certain point, like when they touch the subframe. Not the same as bind, where the bushings have nowhere to go and are forced against the subframe.
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11-12-2009, 08:47 AM
#42
The bind isn't a huge deal with OE bushings since they're so soft. But as the bushing gets stiffer it becomes more important to remove bind. Way back I (unfortunately) installed an entire set of delrin bushings w/o checking the tolerance. As before I brought the wheels up to compress the suspension to some similar to static ride height and then torqued the camber bolts. I then went out on the track, through a turn and found that my suspension had compressed from the lateral load, but not returned due to the bind on the bushings. So as lateral load decreased, the car was essentially leaning "out" of the turn. Not a confident feeling. Fundamentally the job of the bushing assembly is to operate like a hinge point for the control arm, not a spring. This why real race cars use bearings.
The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.
The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.
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11-12-2009, 03:41 PM
#43
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The bind isn't a huge deal with OE bushings since they're so soft. But as the bushing gets stiffer it becomes more important to remove bind. Way back I (unfortunately) installed an entire set of delrin bushings w/o checking the tolerance. As before I brought the wheels up to compress the suspension to some similar to static ride height and then torqued the camber bolts. I then went out on the track, through a turn and found that my suspension had compressed from the lateral load, but not returned due to the bind on the bushings. So as lateral load decreased, the car was essentially leaning "out" of the turn. Not a confident feeling. Fundamentally the job of the bushing assembly is to operate like a hinge point for the control arm, not a spring. This why real race cars use bearings.
The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.
The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.
******* lazy. Guess I'm dropping the control arms again.
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11-12-2009, 04:36 PM
#44
BTDT - but once it's done you'll know it's right AND hopefully there will be an improvement. Honestly you should be able to check binding at all corners with the wheels off, shocks and sways disconnected. When I was done with the delrin kits you could pull up the entire hub, then let go and it would just fall (slowly) to full sag.
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11-12-2009, 04:44 PM
#45
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BTDT - but once it's done you'll know it's right AND hopefully there will be an improvement. Honestly you should be able to check binding at all corners with the wheels off, shocks and sways disconnected. When I was done with the delrin kits you could pull up the entire hub, then let go and it would just fall (slowly) to full sag.
And sorry for the thread jack.
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11-12-2009, 09:09 PM
#46
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Not at all, I'm interested too. At he mentioned, probably you should lift the wheel, and see if there's any binding. If the weight of the a-arm pulls it down, without the spring, you're DEFINITELY in the clear and don't need to shave anything.
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11-13-2009, 08:53 AM
#48
Yes- just enough. Ideally all bushings should be too big so you can then adjust them to fit with minimum tolerance. What you want to avoid is an assembly sliding fore/aft on the bushing sleeves. That said- if you over trim, you can always use fender washers (overbored so the sleeve fits through the bore) on each side to take up extra space.
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11-17-2009, 04:27 PM
#49
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Unbolted shocks and sway, it droops slowly if I pull the control arms up...
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.
Last edited by MartinezA92; 11-17-2009 at 04:56 PM.
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11-19-2009, 02:42 PM
#50
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+1 on the bushing swap being a lot of work. I am putting in a set now and I keep procrastinating on the bushings to do other things on the car first. I am heating them with a torch and tapping them out. It is a bit messy. I am also adding grease fittings so that takes a little more time.
The deal with the lower ride height IIRC is this... The bushing is bonded to the inner sleeve and essentially bonded to the outer tube in the control arm. The bolts force the inner sleeve so tight into the chassis mount that the sleeve does not rotate around the bolt. If it did, there would be wear on the bolt and/or sleeve since they are not lubricated. Because the inner sleeve is not rotating, and the outer part of the bushing is essentially bonded to the control arm, the bushing twists, like a torsion spring. That effectively adds a tad of spring rate.
That is why the car drops slightly with the poly bushings. No torsion action.
The deal with the lower ride height IIRC is this... The bushing is bonded to the inner sleeve and essentially bonded to the outer tube in the control arm. The bolts force the inner sleeve so tight into the chassis mount that the sleeve does not rotate around the bolt. If it did, there would be wear on the bolt and/or sleeve since they are not lubricated. Because the inner sleeve is not rotating, and the outer part of the bushing is essentially bonded to the control arm, the bushing twists, like a torsion spring. That effectively adds a tad of spring rate.
That is why the car drops slightly with the poly bushings. No torsion action.
Yes- just enough. Ideally all bushings should be too big so you can then adjust them to fit with minimum tolerance. What you want to avoid is an assembly sliding fore/aft on the bushing sleeves. That said- if you over trim, you can always use fender washers (overbored so the sleeve fits through the bore) on each side to take up extra space.
Unbolted shocks and sway, it droops slowly if I pull the control arms up...
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.
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11-19-2009, 06:01 PM
#51
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Yea. Eh. Even my 300 lb springs seem like it'd be more than enough. Already have the alignment specs I want, I've decided to leave it. When I do the rears though I'll check for tightness. I have access to a belt sander anyway.
As for the rears, has anyone done it without removing the spindle/axle assembly? It seems like I could stick the c-clamp in there to press that top bushing out, I don't really want to remove the axle, especially after the horror stories I've heard of people trying to get those damn things out.
As for the rears, has anyone done it without removing the spindle/axle assembly? It seems like I could stick the c-clamp in there to press that top bushing out, I don't really want to remove the axle, especially after the horror stories I've heard of people trying to get those damn things out.
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11-19-2009, 06:36 PM
#52
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You do not have to remove the axles either way. The upper and lower control mounts at the outer end are just bolts. They are both easy to disconnect and remove without removing the upright (or the halfshafts) from the car.
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11-20-2009, 01:16 AM
#53
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I had heard you had to, if what you say is true then that's a relief. There is that one bushing that isnt in the control arm but its in the hub/spindle assembly though...
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11-20-2009, 06:01 PM
#59
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Just spend $800+ for OEM replacements like me... 
I wish I had gone with the Energy kit from Emilio. The bushings didn't even fix my problem, so I wasted that much money and still the car doesn't feel very much different than before.
I wish I had gone with the Energy kit from Emilio. The bushings didn't even fix my problem, so I wasted that much money and still the car doesn't feel very much different than before.
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